Who won the debate? [Archive] - Graphic Design Forum

morea

10-01-2004, 05:32 PM

FYI - from CNN

October 8: Second presidential debate

Location: Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri
Length of debate: 90 minutes, starting at 9 p.m. ET
Topics: No limits on topics, but the debate agreement states that as many questions on foreign policy and homeland security will be asked as are questions on economic and domestic policy.
Moderator: 'Good Morning America' anchor Charles Gibson
Format: A town hall forum, with candidates sitting on stools. The 100 to 150 audience members will be selected by the Gallup organization, which will invite an equal number of 'soft' Bush supporters and 'soft' Kerry supporters. The audience will submit questions to the moderator, who will then choose who participates. At least 16 questions will be asked, with the candidates taking turns answering first. The moderator is to cut off any audience member who strays from his or her approved question.

October 13: Third presidential debate

Location: Arizona State University, Tempe, Arizona
Length of debate: 90 minutes, starting at 9 p.m. ET
Topics: Economic and domestic policy
Moderator: 'Face the Nation' anchor Bob Schieffer
Format: Candidates will stand at podiums, with no audience participation. The moderator will ask at least 16 questions. A candidate will get two minutes to respond to a question; the other candidate will get 90 seconds to comment on the question or to respond to his rival's answer.

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

snypa

10-01-2004, 05:34 PM

i agree-- bush did seem caught off guard a few times. i also felt kerry seemed to use his time better. he kept ending with a pretty strong statement

...and remember, tuesday is soylent green day

Jason Fraker

10-01-2004, 05:36 PM

Didn't Bush go to Yale too? And Harvard? After all, Kerry and Bush were both in Yale's Skull & Bones secret society. They're fraternity brothers for crying out loud!

The clothes do make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society at large.

Neuro

10-01-2004, 05:38 PM

It's hard to say when you sit there and know that they are both full of crap! They have to be...they are politicians!! I was a little bothered by the immaturity of Kerry and the little comments. I also didn't think that Kerry focused much on what he would do exactly. He seemed to focus a lot more on what he felt Bush did wrong. I don't agree with everything that Bush did but I definitely agree about needing a very strong Commander and Chief. It is hard to support someone who says to our soldiers you are there for the wrong reason. They don't want to hear that. They want someone who is going to finish the job they are there to do. Not just pull out as quickly as possible. That won't solve anything. I think Kerry is a bit more well spoken but I think Bush is a little more at the level of everyday ppl. Just my opinion. But that's why I love this country. I am allowed to have one!! My one personal issue with some Kerry supporters is that they only support him because they don't like what Bush has done. That bothers me...it means you just want to put someone in office to get him out. Not put him there because he'll do better?!

When I die, I have a free ride to Heaven! I will have alreadydone my time in Hell...at the local printshop!!

snypa

10-01-2004, 05:42 PM

...but isn't that a good reason if you strongly oppose the decisions bush has made?

...and remember, tuesday is soylent green day

DivineDesign

10-01-2004, 05:52 PM

awww thx morea..lol........who's gonna run against us Debz? huh? HUH? HUUUUHHHH????

He he...I actually completely forgot that was on last night...I had gone to my best friends to drop soemthign off and ended up there for a couple hours and came home to the end of it....DOH! I'll watch the next one....

****DD4VP****

"BAN!"

Today I begin to understand what love must be, if it exists.... When we are parted, we each feel the lack of the other half of ourselves. We are incomplete like a book in two volumes of which the first has been lost. That is what I imagine love to be: incompleteness in absence.

defjoe

10-01-2004, 06:16 PM

This is what I take out of it.

bush didn't say anything new, it's the same crap over and over. when challenged he seemed to lose his cool a bit. Kerry seemed more composed.

also Kerry outlined his plan and ideas, which had been a huge issue with people. He seems to have a good grasp on what is going down around the world and has a locial idea on how to solve it. now if he can do it is another issue altogether.

but like this debate, I can see why foreign leaders don't care for Bush, he seems hot headed and stubborn. We need a man in that office that is willing to look at all the issues and side and decide what is best to do. bush seems too headstrong. Iraq was and continues to be a mistake and he will not back down. I would respect him more if he would just admit it was a mistake to go in there and says 'I will do the best I can to get out of there.' i didn't get that feeling. to me it seemed like that kid in high school that always brougfht up a point and fater to prove it is the wrong point he STILL argues that point, even when it is futile.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
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Debz

10-01-2004, 06:19 PM

LOL well 2 other GDFerz could run and we could run an election.. buhahaha!! that would be cool!

* Vote Debz 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz - 2004

snypa

10-01-2004, 06:21 PM

well put defjoe

...and remember, tuesday is soylent green day

D-Zine

10-01-2004, 06:22 PM

I watched the debate believe it or not....and will be watching the others as well.

Being objective, as Delete said...LOL...I believe Kerry may be a better speaker but he's blowin smoke up everyones asses.. He said over and over that he was going to make things better with the war in Iraq but danced around the issue of HOW when he was asked. Bush may not be a great public speaker but he is more like 'real people'. Kerry seems shady to me...like he will just say whatever the people want to hear, in order to get their vote.

I have other issues I need to hear them both speak about so I'm looking forward to the other debates!

Boobie Island or Bust!

defjoe

10-01-2004, 06:36 PM

oh and is it a coincidence that the US made a huge assault in Samarra right after the debate was over?

come on people....wake up!

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
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Big Perm-dizzle

10-01-2004, 06:41 PM

i like Bush because he runs the country the way he wants to. while he is not perfect he doesnt sway his judgements for popularity. I like him because he is a man's man with his bad grammer and strange expressions he is human.

plus have you noticed John Kerry's facial bone struction he has no cheeks and huge cheek bones and a crazy long chin

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snypa

10-01-2004, 06:44 PM

yeah, i want kerry to win the election because he'd be fun to sketch
listening to bush make an a$$ out of himself is old

...and remember, tuesday is soylent green day

DivineDesign

10-01-2004, 06:47 PM

LOL @ you guys...

****DD4VP****

"BAN!"

Today I begin to understand what love must be, if it exists.... When we are parted, we each feel the lack of the other half of ourselves. We are incomplete like a book in two volumes of which the first has been lost. That is what I imagine love to be: incompleteness in absence.

DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 06:52 PM

bIG pERM said...
i like Bush because he runs the country the way he wants to.

So Hitler was a good leader because he ran his country the way he wanted to? Kerry brought up a great point last night (one which I was hoping he would bring up). He said (paraphrasing here, forgive me):

Yes, you were very decisive, Mr. Bush, but it's no good being decisive if you're making the wrong decisions. He call Bush out on numerous lies and misleadings, and Bush simply chuckled and said, well at least I stood my ground.

Not saying that Bush is hitler, but it doesn't do a bit of good to stick to your guns when you know you're wrong simply to appear strong to the 'enemy.'

Another point I think that put Kerry over the top was when he brought out the fact that Osama and Al Qaeda attacked us, but we attacked Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11.

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snypa

10-01-2004, 06:57 PM

'Another point I think that put Kerry over the top was when he brought out the fact that Osama and Al Qaedo attacked us, but we attacked Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11.'

i was SO happy to finally hear someone say that on tv. i've noticed bush, many times, talk about Iraq and 9/11 in the same sentence, trying to connect the two in peoples heads... but the government has always tried to manipulate the public so i guess this is nothing new

...and remember, tuesday is soylent green day

defjoe

10-01-2004, 06:58 PM

you know, I find it a little ironic that so many people in this forum support bush.

With the way the economy is and they way our industry is effected by it (which is negative as we all know that designers get the boot when things are bad, or our pay suffers) you would think that , in general, we would support someone who will hopefully bring change to the economy. Cause I think it is proven that the guy in there isn't getting the job done.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

snypa

10-01-2004, 06:59 PM

word!!!

...and remember, tuesday is soylent green day

Debz

10-01-2004, 07:07 PM

But the war on Iraq had nothing to do 9/11, the war on iraq had to do with National Security. Personally I think Sadam is evil and should have been taken out a LONG TIME AGO!! I was saying that ever since the gulf war. Im just glad he's pancakeing outta there.. Granted more should be done going after Al-Qaeda.. Its a small world we should be able to find them somewhere.. Im just keeping my faith at this point. Kerry scares me and I think the vulnarbility(sp) of our country would be at stake with him in office. And being that I live between New York and D.C. it doesn't give me a good feeling. Maybe if i lived in the mid-west i'd have a different view. But I believe those Evil Evil Evil people are trying to something to our country EVERYDAY and it urks me. But I keep my head up and stay happy so they dont win..

The problem with america is you have to get all this crap passed n approved n crap u need budgets n crap. Im hoping that the reason bush isnt saying what he's doing is because how can he make a promise if he doesnt know what people will LET him do?

The world is a sick place and i hate it. Im scared to have kids.. What will they have to deal with?

Its ashame.. Because america is a great place. So many freedoms and oppurtunities that you cannot get from some other countries.

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 07:08 PM

Great point, Joe. And on top of that, the evangelical ultra right-wing bible thumpers that control the FTC via the Bush administration threaten our freedom of speech every day. As professional communicators, this is very scary.

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Debz

10-01-2004, 07:10 PM

defjoe said...
you know, I find it a little ironic that so many people in this forum support bush.

With the way the economy is and they way our industry is effected by it (which is negative as we all know that designers get the boot when things are bad, or our pay suffers) you would think that , in general, we would support someone who will hopefully bring change to the economy. Cause I think it is proven that the guy in there isn't getting the job done.

DO you REALLY think that he can mess up the econmy in less then a YEAR?? The econmy went bad right after 9/11. Things were going downhill already and then we get attacked and that KILLED US. Considering all that we have been thru in the last 4 years I think its great that a lot of people still have jobs..

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 07:10 PM

Debz said...
the war on iraq had to do with National Security

Are you sure about that? With no WMDs and a country that was 80% no-fly zone, how in the hell was Hussein going to attack us? Sure, he was evil, and he was a bad guy, but was he really a threat. I doubt it.

N. Korea is much more of a threat and Bush chooses to ignore that issue.

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Debz

10-01-2004, 07:17 PM

Didnt they recently find planes or some crap in the desert in iraq.. I know you say 'oh you republicans still think theres WMD in iraq' But yeah.. ME.. DEMOCRAT believes Saddam was up to something. 9/11 Should have made peoples EYES OPEN. We are NOT SAFE with this psychopaths who will do what they do to there own people.. POWER HUNGRY PSYCHOS. Someone raised the point about hitler, i would more line him up with saddam then bush..

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

Debz

10-01-2004, 07:18 PM

BTW: Sry for getting all like hype.. No hard feelings at all I love u guys a bunch!

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

defjoe

10-01-2004, 07:19 PM

Delete... thanks for pointing that FTC thing out, that is true!

Debz... before 9/11 we had a slump... but historically that is typical for a president change, but then it bounces back. 9/11 happened and that wasn't going to happen. but things have gotten worse. Prices on stuff (gas for example) is SKY ROCKETING! Wages are stagnant, if not going down. I can tell you that our industry took a real hit in the wage department. there is no denying that. Republicans are big business, they give corporations tax breaks and the rich get richer. that's the way it is. At this pont the middle class is being raped. We need someone in there that will help the middle class. Kerry has said he is going to cut the tax breaks for anyone making over $200K and also cut the tax incentive for outsourcing, which I think is so UnAmerican. If he does what he says then we will benefit.

bush.. I don't hear about his plan ofr the next 4 years, more of the same.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

snypa

10-01-2004, 07:21 PM

just to lighten things up a bit... does anyone else think that kids of the future, when they first hear the word sodomy and what it means, will think it came from saddam? the two sound similar to me. just a thought!

...and remember, tuesday is soylent green day

MpiricL

10-01-2004, 07:26 PM

The first debate is focused on foreign policy. I was an undecided voter before I watched the debate last night. After watching it I am leaning towards Kerry, I thought he smoked Bush. <- (that is one weird sentence)
Anyway, Bush seems to fumble over everything that is thrown his way, and his facial expressions while Kerry was speaking was really turning me off, seemed child like. After Kerry brought up the fact that Osama attacked us, not Sadam, the next thing bush had to say was " I know Osama Atacked us, I know that" Then spouted off about something not related to it. ??? WTF?
I still want to watch the other debates before I make a decision. This is the first time I have really been into an election, I actually had a couple buddys come over, we picked up some beer and sat on the couch and watched it like we would a boxing match.

No great artist ever sees things as they really are. If he did, he would cease to be an artist. ~Oscar Wilde

Post Edited (MpiricL) : 10/1/2004 3:22:50 PM GMT

Neuro

10-01-2004, 07:28 PM

Ok, he might not have been able to attack us with his own planes but what about what he was doing to his own ppl. I get tired of hearing ppl thinking that he should have been dealt with differently. Unfortunately the man didn't understand anything other than an army going in and hunting his ass down. He was evil, plain and simple. I don't think Bush was wrong for taking him out. I think that he choose the wrong things to say to us about why we were going in there. Nothing that Sadam did in Iraq resulted in anything positive for his ppl. Only positive for himself. THE WORLD IS SAFER WITH HIM IN JAIL!! WOULD BE EVEN SAFER WITH HIM DEAD!! As far as a connection between 9/11 and Sadam, I think there is so much more going on than we 'the ppl' will ever know about. I can't ever sit here and think that I know what is really going on. Sometimes I have the feeling that the President doesn't completely know. There are organizations that know. I know that Sadam wasn't the one that ordered the attack on the US but don't you think that some of those ppl passed through his country? Do you think he would of stopped them? Hell no! He would have patted them on the back and said keep up the good work. He was a terrorist himself! I think he contributed to situations around the world that involved terrorism. His own ppl feared him! The ppl of Iraq are safer with him gone. We need a leader that won't stand for the BS that a terrorist would try. Bush might make mistakes but he is human. I don't think Kerry has the stomach to deal with situations like Sadam. He would have spent four years saying 'Please, don't do that!' 'Please behave!' Doesn't work with someone like that. Thats why so many thousands of Iraqis are dead! He only understood one thing...force!

When I die, I have a free ride to Heaven! I will have alreadydone my time in Hell...at the local printshop!!

Neuro

10-01-2004, 07:31 PM

MpiricL - it is good to hear that you take such an interest. It should be that important...no matter where you stand or who you want to vote for. So many ppl for get that it is so important and is such a beautiful right to be able to vote.

When I die, I have a free ride to Heaven! I will have alreadydone my time in Hell...at the local printshop!!

Debz

10-01-2004, 07:32 PM

Well okay in our industry.. When 9/11 hit.. we were doing good.. My company at least had a GREAT 2001 - 2002.. But then affected us in 2003 - 2004. it takes time for the crap to go around.. Especially in stuff that people get printed and such. They order their stuff like usual then with times being bad they wont reorder at the same rate that they did because they are not using theres supplies as fast. (im using my company as an example). But when times got bad we improved ways of doing stuff.. opened ourselves up to new ideas and new markets..

I hate to say it cuz this is gonna make me sound like a real ass.. its Survival of the Strong & Fit, Like what pisses me off.. A friend of mine was unemployed.. He couldnt find a job.. Yet his live in girlfriend would NOT Let him take a job making anything less then a certain amount (which was more then what he lost his job at) because it wasnt good enough for him. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do!!! hes still unemployeed btw (at least last i heard because we havent talked in a few weeks). Sometimes in life to get what you want you gotta work hard and work even harder to get the job that someone else is trying to get.

LOL Damn i must sound like an ass.. huh?

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

Debz

10-01-2004, 07:35 PM

Cats Eye Creations said...
Ok, he might not have been able to attack us with his own planes but what about what he was doing to his own ppl. I get tired of hearing ppl thinking that he should have been dealt with differently. Unfortunately the man didn't understand anything other than an army going in and hunting his ass down. He was evil, plain and simple. I don't think Bush was wrong for taking him out. I think that he choose the wrong things to say to us about why we were going in there. Nothing that Sadam did in Iraq resulted in anything positive for his ppl. Only positive for himself. THE WORLD IS SAFER WITH HIM IN JAIL!! WOULD BE EVEN SAFER WITH HIM DEAD!! As far as a connection between 9/11 and Sadam, I think there is so much more going on than we 'the ppl' will ever know about. I can't ever sit here and think that I know what is really going on. Sometimes I have the feeling that the President doesn't completely know. There are organizations that know. I know that Sadam wasn't the one that ordered the attack on the US but don't you think that some of those ppl passed through his country? Do you think he would of stopped them? Hell no! He would have patted them on the back and said keep up the good work. He was a terrorist himself! I think he contributed to situations around the world that involved terrorism. His own ppl feared him! The ppl of Iraq are safer with him gone. We need a leader that won't stand for the BS that a terrorist would try. Bush might make mistakes but he is human. I don't think Kerry has the stomach to deal with situations like Sadam. He would have spent four years saying 'Please, don't do that!' 'Please behave!' Doesn't work with someone like that. Thats why so many thousands of Iraqis are dead! He only understood one thing...force!

Well said.. I dont put things together very well that i want to say but i totally agree with you 155%

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

defjoe

10-01-2004, 07:36 PM

Agreed (w/ Cat's eye original statement).. to a point. Sadaam was a maniac. He was evil to his own people... but why didn't THEY do something about it? If yhe majority of the population (which is what bush is saying... 75% of Iraq wants peace) then why didn't they stop him? Why did we have to get involved? We have homeless people here in the US, we have a failing economy, we have terrorist HERE! Take care of that studd first before you go out and spend billins helping another country, that frankly, doesn't seem to want us there!

also don't you think it's funny that Bush was down here in Florida a few weeks back (after Frances) saying HE pushed a $2 billion aid package thru congress for people devestated by the hurricanes... then the VERY NEXT day he approved ANOTHER $65 billion for Iraq!

wow what a great guy.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

MpiricL

10-01-2004, 07:36 PM

You are so right Cats Eye, I must admit I have never voted in the past, and I am 25 years old. I always made excuses and now see the importance of voting.

Defjoe, I have often wondered why the people of Iraq have not stood up to Sadam in the past as well, and I always come to the conclusion of fear, the Man is an evil prick, no doubt about that, and he controled that place with fear. Not the way to do it. At times, I have asked myself is the bush admin is doing the same thing to us? Are they trying to push fear into our hearts with these WMD? That is a bit paranoid, just stuff to think about.

No great artist ever sees things as they really are. If he did, he would cease to be an artist. ~Oscar Wilde

Post Edited (MpiricL) : 10/1/2004 3:37:39 PM GMT

DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 07:37 PM

First of all, let me say that I enjoy an intelligent, well-thought-out debate over politics and I would never take it personally. I don't think any different of anyone in this forum based on your personal beleifs. It's all in the name of learning, expanding conciousness, and shareing knowledge...

That being said...LOL @ MpiricL. Funny crap!

Synpa, I never thought of that, but you are so right!

Debz, they are always going to find something to make you go, 'hey, i guess they really did have weapons.' But the reality of the situation is, so far they have only come up with finds the can seem harmful as a result of the spin they put on it. Remember the mobile 'weapon-making' units they found? Turned out they were just mobile labs used for medical purposes or something. It's not illegal for Saddam to have planes. We were led to beleive that Iraq had WMDs and attempted to purchase nuclear material. These things are just not true.

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Debz

10-01-2004, 07:37 PM

Yeah but he also appoved more money for Fla after each hurricane...

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 07:38 PM

Wow, this thread is moving too fast for me!

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Debz

10-01-2004, 07:39 PM

LOL I know they can have planes or whatever.. HONESTLY i forget what it was and what was wrong about it.. so i retract that statement from my argument. ;)

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

defjoe

10-01-2004, 07:41 PM

uhmm the money he approved for FL is NO WHERE near the money he has spent in Iraq, we have a war zone down here, screw Iraq for now!

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

Neuro

10-01-2004, 07:44 PM

thanks debz...kind of was on a roll a bit there. felt good to get that out. part of why i love this forum!

debz...i agree about the unemployed in our society. my father is working nights at Target (i know how you guys love that place) and days as a sub teacher after losing a job of 20+ yrs. he sleeps next to nothing to make sure the bills are paid. his life sucks but he knows it is what he has to do. so many ppl just want something good handed to them. yes, the economy sucks and jobs paying good are not there. however there are jobs, just not great jobs. i hate lazy ppl!!

defjoe...i understand how strange that looks to approve more for iraq. i agree that isn't right. like I stated earlier I don't agree with everythin Bush does. i do have to disagree with you about them wanting us there (Iraq). my brother is currently stationed there...he tells me stories all the time about how thankful the ppl are. it is the warlords, terrorists and ppl who were doing well under Sadam that don't want us there.

When I die, I have a free ride to Heaven! I will have alreadydone my time in Hell...at the local printshop!!

DivineDesign

10-01-2004, 07:54 PM

(lol, I'm so A.D.D. i can't even follow this thread...)

****Debz4Prez****2004****DD4VP****

"BAN!"

Today I begin to understand what love must be, if it exists.... When we are parted, we each feel the lack of the other half of ourselves. We are incomplete like a book in two volumes of which the first has been lost. That is what I imagine love to be: incompleteness in absence.

Debz

10-01-2004, 08:00 PM

http://www.showmenews.com/2004/Sep/20040908News011.asp

WASHINGTON (AP) - On its first day back from summer recess yesterday, Congress rushed to approve $2 billion in money to deliver disaster relief to areas of Florida reeling from effects of two hurricanes.

A voice vote in the House and agreement by the Senate sent the bill directly to President George W. Bush before his tour today of hurricane-hit areas of the politically crucial state.

'The $2 billion is a start,' said Rep. Bill Young, R-Fla., who heads the House Appropriations Committee. 'We have no idea yet what the total requirements could be.'

Bush asked Congress on Aug. 27 to approve $2 billion for recovery efforts after Hurricane Charley. On Monday, after Hurricane Frances’ sweep across the state, he designated his request an emergency, which made the money available in the budget year ending Sept. 30.

A White House official said Bush was expected to sign the aid bill before leaving for Florida.

Almost all the $2 billion would go to replenish disaster relief funds of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Young said FEMA would run out of disaster money today without immediate action by Congress.

The legislation also designates $30 million for Small Business Administration loan programs.

FEMA uses the money for direct aid to families, debris removal, infrastructure repairs and emergency food and shelter.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., said aid to Florida was the Senate’s top priority after its return from the six-week summer recess.

'We need to reach out and aggressively respond to help the people of Florida,' Frist said.

Both House and Senate lawmakers acknowledged that the $2 billion was only a down payment on federal aid to the state. They said Congress would have to consider a second spending bill once the total damage from the storms becomes clearer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not sure what has been done since but it does say down payment.. which means more should come?? And if Bush gave FLA 65 Billion im sure a lot of people would get pissed at that too!

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

woodwardo

10-01-2004, 08:03 PM

mmmm. . . politics.
Kerry won.

-- eff.

Big Perm-dizzle

10-01-2004, 08:04 PM

my opinion on the US attacking iraq

if I am taking the trash out and I notice there is some more trash on the way I will pick it up...

if your in the nehborhood might as well as clean up

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MpiricL

10-01-2004, 08:04 PM

Very interesting,
I was just listening to a morning Radio station here in Colorado,
they had two Iraqi nationals on the air with them, talking about the debate last night. The host just asked the nationals who would the terrorsists want in office, Kerry or Bush? The Iraqi responded "You would have to ask them, I don't know" and mentioned he personally didnt think it matters which president is in office. They also thanked the american people many times for sending our troops into Iraq, and said it has done more good than people realize.

No great artist ever sees things as they really are. If he did, he would cease to be an artist. ~Oscar Wilde

BuckarooB

10-01-2004, 08:06 PM

Über allen unvernünftigen Masse.. 

http://www.zzpop.com/ImageServe/PirateBanzaiSig.gif

morea

10-01-2004, 08:08 PM

What confused me last night: Kerry said that by moving troops into Iraq Bush was spreading US forces too thin. But then he said that the US should have troops in Darfur (Africa) to stop the genocide. What was Saddam Hussein doing in Iraq? Genocide. So why is one right and the other wrong?

Forces may not have found weapons of mass destruction, but they found mass graves of Iraquis killed by Hussein and his sons. I have to agree with the statement that the world is a safer place without him.

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

morea

10-01-2004, 08:12 PM

Unfortunately, as 'average citizens' none of us will ever have access to all of the information that the president is briefed on every day. Whoever is in that position just has to do the best that they can with the intelligence/information they have. I sure wouldn't want to have to make the decisions associated with being in office.

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

Debz

10-01-2004, 08:13 PM

LOL BP!!

Thats good to hear MpiricL..

Another question I have is.. What happened? In school I dont remember learning how people were so opposed to WW2 or WW1. Hell FDR was in office 3 terms.. (who btw is my fav. president) My impression growing up was.. your country goes to war u support your gov't, troops, families.. everyone bonds together and helps eachother out.

I am suprised that after us being attacked.. a SECOND time.. we are so hostile to trying to make the world a better place.

Am i talking too much? If you want me all to shut up just say so and i will.. LOL

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

morea

10-01-2004, 08:18 PM

Well, Debz, if you are running for office, we have to know where you stand. /emoticons/biggrin.gif

That's the beauty of a free country. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and no one can tell you that you are wrong! (well, I suppose they *can* tell you that you're wrong, but you don't have to listen to them!)

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

Big Perm-dizzle

10-01-2004, 08:23 PM

like taxes vote Kerry!

Personally I think Bush has done a good job... no one likes war but he has made the best of it.. He has been dealt a hard deck of cards and I think he has done some very good things.

I could be worse Clinton could still be in office

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morea

10-01-2004, 08:23 PM

<shudder>

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

Debz

10-01-2004, 08:25 PM

The eastern seaboard probibly wouldnt exsist because he'd be busy gettin head in the oval office.. Opps did i say that? :x

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

defjoe

10-01-2004, 08:46 PM

and? where is the rest of the money for the storms?

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
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defjoe

10-01-2004, 08:50 PM

clinton is the man!

he lied about getting head but he never lied about WMD.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

Big Perm-dizzle

10-01-2004, 08:59 PM

clinton came into the office during this dot com boom and left after things turned crapty

it takes a couple years for the economy to reflect upon the president

my cousin is personal friends of Clinton from Arkansas and he told he wouldnt trust him

a liar will also steal from you

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MpiricL

10-01-2004, 09:01 PM

Big perm,
Do you think Bush is honest with the people?

No great artist ever sees things as they really are. If he did, he would cease to be an artist. ~Oscar Wilde

Jason Fraker

10-01-2004, 09:09 PM

Clinton also had Osama in the cross hairs 3 or 4 times, but called off the hit. John Kerry serves in Vietnam (the cornerstone of his campaign), then comes home and throws someone else's medals on the Capital steps (probably kept his in case war became popular again), goes on record saying that our boys were nothing but savages and war criminals (his testimony was played to US POW's in Vietnam), and does absolutely NOTHING of note for 30 years. Then he decides to run for president, so he dusts off his 'I won 3 purple hearts' routine (complete with the 'hat in the briefcase story') and starts saying how he would have done this instead of that etc, etc... Well, you can't stuff the crap back into the horse. What's done is done! We ARE at war, there's nothing we can do about it now but finish it, and GW Bush can finish it better than Kerry. The most important issue in this campaign is the topic of last night's debate: National Security. You can't have a booming economy if everyone's dead!

I shudder to think where we'd be if Gore was elected 4 years ago! 'We're sorry, Mr. Bin Laden. Whatever we did to offend you, we will gladly stop doing it. Just please, tell us what we did!'

-Jason

The clothes do make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society at large.

morea

10-01-2004, 09:09 PM

I have a problem using <any politician> and <honest> in the same sentence.

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

Post Edited (morea) : 10/1/2004 6:24:25 PM GMT

BuckarooB

10-01-2004, 09:10 PM

Das einzige Ding das notwendig ist für den Triumph des Übels ist für gute Männer, nichts zu machen..

http://www.zzpop.com/ImageServe/PirateBanzaiSig.gif

morea

10-01-2004, 09:11 PM

That's an Edmund Burke quote, n'est-ce pas BB?

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

BuckarooB

10-01-2004, 09:17 PM

Ja ist es. Und, das ist ein gutes Wort auf dem zu pensionieren mit Neun Hunderten, Neunundneunzig Posten..

Seien Sie gut zu Ein ein anderer. Beten Sie die Kraft von Gott und Liebe für alle von uns.

http://www.zzpop.com/ImageServe/PirateBanzaiSig.gif

defjoe

10-01-2004, 09:18 PM

Kerry FOUGHT in vietnam, he has every right to protest it, i'll take his word over someone who dodged it by going into the National guard that his daddy got him into.

Clinton took whose economy and turned it around? oh that would have been Bush Sr who scrtewed up all of Reagan's work! all I know is that the early 90s... BAD recession then all thru the last part of the 90s great economy, smaller defecit, TILL!

like father, like son.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

Jason Fraker

10-01-2004, 09:28 PM

Yeah, Joe, well my computer can beat up your computer. Plus, you stink, Stinkhead!

Seriously, I respect your opinions. I heard this once: The true patriot says 'I do not like what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it' And, just for the record, I'm not in love with Bush either. He's not the best president we've ever had, but he's certainly not the worst. Something happened very early in his administration that would've put anyone's Economy in the toilet. I just think that since he's already waist deep into this thing, that now's not the time to switch leaders. This election is like deciding between Comic Sans & Avante Garde, it's just the lesser of two evils.

-JF

The clothes do make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society at large.

morea

10-01-2004, 09:33 PM

Great analogy, Jason! Too funny.

and I admire that quote, which I believe was attributed to Voltaire. (an old one but a good one!)

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

Debz

10-01-2004, 09:34 PM

Jason Fraker said...
I shudder to think where we'd be if Gore was elected 4 years ago! 'We're sorry, Mr. Bin Laden. Whatever we did to offend you, we will gladly stop doing it. Just please, tell us what we did!'

yup.. and crazy me voted for gore.. what was i thinking..

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 09:37 PM

Clinton was one of the best presidents of the last century. If you look at his economic, employment, foreign policy records, you will find that he did more for the American people and the world then many give him credit for. Sure, his sexual escapades were innapropriate and wrong, but if that's the worst thing he did as president, I can live with that. I went to go find a list of his accomplishments as president but check this out:

www.pbs.org/teachersource/mathline/career/career0400.shtm (http://www.pbs.org/teachersource/mathline/career/career0400.shtm)

PBS, a source we can all agree upon as unpartisan and ubiased, links to the white house (bottom of the page) to refer to pages that document Clinton and Clinton-Gore accomplishments during their administration. But alas! The pages are mysteriously not found!!!!

I smell conspiracy.

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DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 09:40 PM

Jason Fraker said...
Yeah, Joe, well my computer can beat up your computer. Plus, you stink, Stinkhead!

Seriously, I respect your opinions. I heard this once: The true patriot says 'I do not like what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it' And, just for the record, I'm not in love with Bush either. He's not the best president we've ever had, but he's certainly not the worst. Something happened very early in his administration that would've put anyone's Economy in the toilet. I just think that since he's already waist deep into this thing, that now's not the time to switch leaders. This election is like deciding between Comic Sans & Avante Garde, it's just the lesser of two evils.

-JF

Nice. and Common, one of the true poets of our time said,

'Though some of that sh!t y'all pop true it, I ain't relating
If I don't like it, I don't like it, that don't mean that I'm hating
I just want to innovate and stimulate minds
Travel the world and penetrate the times'

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defjoe

10-01-2004, 09:53 PM

Jason,

well right back at you poopy pants! ;)

i'm with you on the lesser of 2 evils. i'm not a big Kerry fan myself even though I'm from MA. I wish the Dem's had a stronger representative. but alas that is not to be. now people who do know me know I HATE a presidential change. I get nervous when it happens. i'm very much 'don't rock the boat if the waters are calm'. If a president is doing a good job, they should be able to go as long as they want. You are right that any president would have been rocked by 9/11, but who know if it would have happened if Clinton was in office still. Bush had a report in his hands in August that there was chatter about OBL planning on using planes against us. Why didn't he listen? Oh wait, he was on vaca the whole money of August on his ranch. that's the stuff that I take notice of.

anyway, for me to want a new president, that is big. I hate bush that much i'm willing to go with the unknown cause I don't like the known right now.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

Big Perm-dizzle

10-01-2004, 09:55 PM

clinton = snake dressed in sheep's clothing

I want a God fearing, ass kicking president

Clinton = the worst president in history

Teddy Rosevelt is my kind of president

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Debz

10-01-2004, 09:56 PM

FDR!!!!!!!!!

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

Jason Fraker

10-01-2004, 10:07 PM

Chatter isn't exactly an exact science. It's a bunch of guys with pocket protectors sitting in a windowless room several stories below ground and interpreting thousands of fragments of messages, encoded messages, cell phone conversations (yup, they listen to all those), Emails (yup, they read all those too), and trying to make a clear picture of our eminent threats. They don't mention every time we are 'gonna be attacked' to us because it usually doesn't end up happening (and they want to actually catch some of these people, not scare 'em off with CNN). To put it into perspective, the 'chatter' probably predicted, very vaguely, several dozen or even hundreds of attacks in the last 10 years.

The clothes do make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society at large.

Magnus

10-01-2004, 10:12 PM

Man there are a lot of stupid posts on this thread.

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian that I don't get my head force planted up my arse by constant exposure to the US Media monster, but how can some of you people be so ignorant when justifiying US military action in Iraq?

Jesus christ, 2 years ago Collin Powel AND the head of NSA for the US BOTH said that A) there were no WMD to be located in Iraq, that his chemical and biological weapons capability were nil, and B) that Saddam Hussein represented a ZERO threat to US security. Then, after 911 all of a sudden IRAQ, and NOT Al Qaeda who were largely based in Afganistan, becomes the target for an aggressive, anti-terrorist policy. The US had what, 16,000 combat troops in Afganistan, looking for Bin Lade, and there are almost 200,000 in the Gulf now?

It was Al Qaeda that attacked the US, it's BEEN AL QAEDA since the frig'n 80's that have been attacking US soil and property all over the god damn world, from Beirut, Lebanon to the middle east and finally on US soil.

Bush openly lied about his reasons to go into Iraq. Sure, Saddam was a cruel dictator, but clean up the mess in your own back yard first, before you go on a crusade to clean up the neighbhourhood. Address the problem of terrorism IE: Al Qaeda and their network, THEN, take Iraq if they do actually pose a threat to National Security. (which they really didn't anyway.)

I tell ya, some of you people make me howl. You sit there and base a lot of your arguments on the propagandist lies that your own government feeds you, then point the finger at the next guy in line to be president and give him the same routine.

I think that if you some of you did a bit of actual research, rather than regurgitating 2nd and 3rd hand information, that you'd see my point.

Unfortunately, Kerry may not be better, but he'd be a helluva lot better than Bush. He'd sooner put the **** to his own people to make a profit than be honest and pursue a just course of action.

So much for graphic designers being critical thinkers.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

Debz

10-01-2004, 10:13 PM

they listen to my cell phone conversations? :o LOL

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

Jason Fraker

10-01-2004, 10:17 PM

Spooky, Huh Debz?

The clothes do make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society at large.

Debz

10-01-2004, 10:22 PM

yeah.. i should quit with the phone sex.. HAHAHA jp ;)

* Vote Debz & DD 2004 *

I will end terrorism, Stupidity, Laziness and eliminate all the slackers who drag us down. Do not screw wit me.. buahaha! Debz & DD - 2004

DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 10:25 PM

Thank you, Magnus. You always offer logical, unbiased information on the subject of American politics.

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DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 10:26 PM

bIG pERM said...

I want a God fearing, ass kicking president

*shiver*

Precisely what I don't want in a president.

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defjoe

10-01-2004, 10:30 PM

it's funny that a guy from Canada says it the best and the most truthful. Well said Matt!

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 10:33 PM

It makes perfect sense. Like he said, he's not bombarded with the smokescreen of the American media. It's more difficult for Americans to ignore the bullsh!t that's shoved down our throats and search for the real truth.

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Jason Fraker

10-01-2004, 10:34 PM

And what is the 'real truth', DY? Please, enlighten us.

The clothes do make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society at large.

morea

10-01-2004, 10:35 PM

Very true.

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

10-01-2004, 10:39 PM

I honestly don’t know who to vote for but I do know that Iraq was shore a mistake.

Now do we let Bush of Kerry finish it? I don’t know I have to watch the rest of the debates and even then is a subjective opinion cause 90% of what they say never happens.

You want to know what my major problem with politics are that they can’t even control there own system how are they going to monitor ours. You have school administrators robbing the school budget you have corrupted politicians banking 4x there salary.

There is to much information missing to even know what is going on.

Also I consider myself to have a moderate education. I read about 4-6 books a year, now I’m going to be 100% honest, “I don’t understand everything” now how is everyone else in America going to understand?

These debates are a pancakeing joke they steer clear of direct answers. Use terminology that is above the average understanding of 80% of Americans. In an attempt to hold a power that they can’t even administer.

We base our money system on what? On paper I mean do you guys even realize the amount of flaws in our system.

This war problem is a distraction to the real problem. Which is what does America really know about America?

Do you guys know that our government prints money every time they run out? Do you know how many politicians rob us every day? What do we really know?

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DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 10:57 PM

The real truth refers to things that actually matter in politics. Not bullsh!t issues like gay mairrages and OBGYN (wtf?).

Politics should mean more than the 5 sec. sound bytes we have become accustomed to. This a bi-partisan issue I'm referring to.

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MpiricL

10-01-2004, 11:03 PM

Blame Canada! Blame Canada! Sorry... Cant get that song out of my head all of a sudden.

Magnus,
holy crap, your post rocked. Were you born and raised in Canada?
I felt the anger, and I liked it :)

The most interesting part to me about all of this is people opinions outside of the US. They shouldnt be ignored.

No great artist ever sees things as they really are. If he did, he would cease to be an artist. ~Oscar Wilde

morea

10-01-2004, 11:04 PM

^ I totally agree about the opinions of those outside the US... not about blaming Canada. /emoticons/biggrin.gif

You've gotta do what you've gotta do.

Post Edited (morea) : 10/1/2004 9:38:43 PM GMT

Magnus

10-01-2004, 11:05 PM

I just wish that a strong leader, strong in moral fortitude and well disciplined would rise up with the full support of the people, kind of like the King Arthur fairy tale.

I honestly don't envy you guys though...god damn. it's like choosing what leg you want cut off....

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

Post Edited (Magnus) : 10/1/2004 7:02:20 PM GMT

DeleteYourself

10-01-2004, 11:32 PM

Or Aragorn post-demise of Sauron in LOTR.

*oops, sorry to get all geeky on you guys. It won't happen again* /emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

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defjoe

10-01-2004, 11:39 PM

who and who in the what?

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

Big Perm-dizzle

10-01-2004, 11:48 PM

deleteyourself said...
*shiver*

Precisely what I don't want in a president.

scratches head, so what do you want in a president?

Kerry wants to be the global prom queen not a leader. Being a leader means people will question your actions making bold choices will always cause arguments. Clinton left this country in a mess and Bush (while not making all the right decisions atleast made bold choices .

did hussian need to go? yes

and if its all about oil

who is the more honorable man? one who keeps the bad in power and keeps the oil coming or the one who takes the bad out of power and still keeps the oil coming?

the easy more passive (clinton) way would not to gone to war you have to respect someone who makes bold choices - I respect that Bush takes a stand on gay marriages too

however Bush isnt perfect but alteast he make bold choices and doesnt take the easy way out

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Jason Fraker

10-02-2004, 12:01 AM

At least you know how Bush feels about things. My favorite quote from Bush last night: 'The only thing that's consistant about my opponent is his inconsistancy.' You're right, BP, for a guy to take a stand against gay marriage & abortion in a country that is getting progressively more accepting of the two, takes boldness & extreme amounts of testicular fortitude.

The clothes do make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society at large.

Big Perm-dizzle

10-02-2004, 12:02 AM

i get sick of this MTV, everyone deserves a fair change, dont make people mad, treat everyone nice attitude

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Post Edited (bIG pERM) : 10/1/2004 8:05:09 PM GMT

40thCentDesign

10-02-2004, 12:05 AM

Yay politics!

I have a friend in France who is constantly being harrassed about America and Iraq, and wondered what I thought about it. Here you go, a cut and paste!

------------------------

I had serious reservations about when we went to war and why. But still, there were several compelling reasons that were stated as to why we attacked Iraq.

Even as far back as 1997, people in the US government were calling for a preemptive strike on Iraq to take out Saddam Hussein. This includes John Kerry, who appeared on CNN stating his case that, despite opposition from Russia and France, the US should seriously consider a strike against Saddam. The US had been bombing military targets in Iraq almost every week during the Clinton Administration, and many felt that these strikes, along with the embargo on Iraq, was merely creating resentment among Iraqis and strengthening Saddam's power.

The problem was, Saddam's government did not allow outside inspectors. It also censored all reports from news media within Iraq, including CNN (which admitted to this after the recent Iraq war started), which prevented the world from getting a clear picture of what was going on in the country. The information that Colin Powell and George W. Bush presented as evidence for going to war was based on fragmented reports and witnesses who could not be corroborated at the time, but this was largely due to Saddam's inflexible position on any information leaving Iraq. Many (but not all) of these reports were later found to be misleading or inaccurate, but only after the war had started and the full picture of Iraq emerged.

Because of the decade-long sanctions, Iraq was a mess. I've read interviews with civil engineers who went in right after the first attacks. The sewers were non-functioning, and power was intermittant in part of the country. This was the case before the attacks, and even more so after the bombings.

A lot of the 'gotcha' politics that have now been plaguing Bush are based on things beyond Bush's control. Before the war, Iraq was in a severe financial crisis, people were being executed or imprisoned for political dissent, and many Muslim religious groups were suppressed. (We found out later that some of the supressed Muslim groups were just as fanatical as Saddam's Baath party). Because of the extreme conditions there, some of the Iraqis who had left the country gave exaggerated stories of what went on, which weapons were there, etc., in the hopes that America would invade and take Saddam out. Now Bush is taking the fall for that.

Anyhow, that's the situation as I see it. And a few side notes on some of the other hot topics:

The much maligned Halliburton was actually given a military contract under Clinton, not Bush. That's why they were the first there. Part of their contract obligates them to be available for military reconstruction at all times.

It's not really in our economic interest to go to war with Iraq. Most of the oil in the region comes from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. And Saudi Arabia isn't terribly keen on the whole Iraq thing, so the attack weakened rather than strengthened the US relationship with the Arab oil countries.

Up until the 1960's, the major non-native presence in the Middle East was Europe. But things were just as messy then as now, and so they bowed out. England dropped Israel, France dropped Iraq. The US took up the slack, and things have been going just as badly as before, but this time the US can't be the backseat driver and shake reproving fists at Europe (which we *did* do). Europe now has that luxury.

If I had more time I'd go online and look some stuff up. But I'm lazy and this is all.

------------

There you go.

/ I'm a cutter, I'm a paster, I'm a midnight poster...

defjoe

10-02-2004, 12:06 AM

yes he does take a strong stance. VERY strong. He also wants to limit what we wtach on TV and what we listen to on the raio. that I do not like! don't telll me what I can and can not listen to.

You know my wife said something years ago and she's right. it all started with seatbelts. she said 'pass that law and you will see other things will come'

now you can't smoke just about anywhere, they want to tell you who you can and can not marry, they want to tell you what to do with your body, they are infinging upon our industry (it's starting). Everyone sits back and is ok with this?

Like i said before...

wake up people!

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

defjoe

10-02-2004, 12:09 AM

perm, your on the edge there of insulting different members... just warning you as a mod (with the fag comment)

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

Big Perm-dizzle

10-02-2004, 12:12 AM

i editted it.... i get carried away

www.hirethisdesigner.com (http://www.hirethisdesigner.com) - portfolio
www.conceptprint.com (http://www.conceptprint.com) - the company I work for

defjoe

10-02-2004, 12:15 AM

no biggie...just wanted to warn you before you got jumped on

but i understand what your saying in general.

however my point is to each their own... if two dudes want to get married, why should I care?

if you don't like Howard Stern on the Radio... turn the station!

If some girl gets raped and is pregnant...shouldn't she have the right to abort?

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

Ryan8720

10-02-2004, 12:16 AM

I don't really think either of them 'won' the debate. They both held their own pretty well. I will admit that Kerry is a better public speaker. Bush's stuttering and Texas accent seem to make him look dumb. But I still don't trust Kerry.

http://www.edgewebdesign.org/images/misc/ryan_staff.gif (http://www.edgewebdesign.org)

40thCentDesign

10-02-2004, 12:26 AM

A few more thoughts on politics, RE: the internet.

I voted for Bush in 2000. I will probably vote for him again. I also live in San Francisco, which means that my vote most likely won't count in the long run. I talk a lot with people here who disagree BIG TIME with Bush, and refer to him as a Nazi, baby-killer, etc., etc. But when we talk politics (which isn't often because it can become heated and angry) it is still usually with respect for each other and with an understanding that the other side is actually thinking through their argument.

That respect often seems to go out the door when arguing on the internet. When you aren't face to face with another human being, you feel like you can throw insults and invective without any repercussion. That's why I try to stay away from politics online. It's a fever swamp of name-calling and baseless insults.

That's my opinion. Arguing these topics on this forum isn't going to resolve the greater problems with our country and the world, but it could ruin people's opinions of each other.

So I guess this is just a plea to keep it civil.

Now pancake all of you. (Just kidding... or am I?)

defjoe

10-02-2004, 12:30 AM

I think it's been civil so far. A goodl ittle debate. no one has really attacked anyone personally. if that does happen, us mods will step in. i'll lock this thread before anyone gets really heated in a flame war.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

Big Perm-dizzle

10-02-2004, 12:34 AM

however it makes bush look more human which I like...

i dont like how some people make a career out of politics

i wish Ross Perot would run again

Defjoe you do have a point...

i agree sort of with abortion if the mother is going to die or something like that then abort if the baby is related to clinton please abort but it is a cruel way to do things

www.hirethisdesigner.com (http://www.hirethisdesigner.com) - portfolio
www.conceptprint.com (http://www.conceptprint.com) - the company I work for

40thCentDesign

10-02-2004, 12:46 AM

Bush does seem more human than Kerry, but that's not a reason to vote for him.

I'm voting for Bush because I really do think that he knows what he's doing, and has a clearer plan for America than Kerry. The protest about the media making Bush look better that Magnus made... I frankly don't see that. The media here (well, maybe this is because of San Francisco) has consistently made Bush look like a menacing moron.

Also, a parallel to Clinton. A lot of people hated HATED *HATED!!@!* Clinton and did everything they could to bring him down. Now, a lot of people feel the same way about Bush. But the difference is that the media has accepted and, in some cases, embraced this hatred of Bush, when in Clinton's case they dismissed the haters as a fringe element.

For example, movie critics gave Farenheit 9/11 an almost universal thumbs up, while at the same time admitting that it was based on misrepresentation of facts and manipulated images. The Clinton Files, a documentary about the former president, was released back in the 90's. It too was full of falsehoods, but the critics hated it.

A double-standard has emerged where a 'beat him with any stick' approach is accepted and even encouraged by mainstream journalists such as Maureen Dowd and Paul Krugman. It's crazy.

Magnus

10-02-2004, 12:57 AM

I don't see why people shouldn't have the right to abort a pregnancy. We humans take lives frivolously every day, but all of a sudden 'our' lives are more important. Gimme a break, that's a huge crock.

However, it comes down to responsibility. While I agree with abortion...even for those stupid individuals who aren't responsible or smart enough to use protection (if only to stop stupid people from breeding) I think a good compromise is to have abortion depend on the situation....as defjoe said. Rape victims get the choice...those that are dumb enough to get pregant from unprotected sex (it's not like we don't know what will happen if we have intercourse...duh!), not only do they not have abortion as an option, but they should be penalized.

People like that are NOT ready to be parents...a fine won't work...maybe so many hours of community service....ah screw it, just shoot them.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

reuber1

10-02-2004, 01:30 AM

"Do we Have to have a President?" Just kidding but seriously, do we?

I think Kerry trampled Bush in the debate, and I think he did better than a lot of people give him credit for. Kerry seemed to have substance and direction while Bush, like the entireRepublican convention, used a lot of pretty words and ideology. I just don't trust Bush...if he gets re-elected, he'll try to get who he wants into the Supreme Court and then he can make changes to the constitution that will probably ban gay marriage ("ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL...unless you're gay") and make abortions illegal (why more women support Bush than Kerry is beyond me...Bush wants to take away a woman's right to choose); defJoe I totally agree with you on the abortion comments and freedom to NOT listen to profane material and who cares if gays can marry (but I don't agree with the cigarette smoke comment, I'm allergic to that stuff like many others and it's hard for me to breathe around it). Also, I believe thedraftWILL be reinstated if Bush continues in office; our military is more thinned out then ever, and they keep saying that we aren't going to reinstate itbut I think that's just pre-election safety measures...aftera Bush re-election I may have to sneak in to Canada (I'm not religious butone of the 10 commandments does say "Thou shall notkill"...there's no asterisks besides it that says"Unless we think you have weapons of mass destruction").I'm not one to b!tch that I don't have a career level job because of Bush's destruction of the economy, but I'm also not going to play the 9/11 card like the Rep. Convention and claim that's the reason why so many jobs were lost--I'm sure I have myself to blame--but the state of the economy hasn't made it easier.And BTW, Bush keeps saying that we have had arise in jobs recently, but that's like saying in a football gameyou have 60 yards in penalties during one drive(that happened to our team in high school) and by third down you make a thirty yard gain; it's impressive, but it's too little too late (time to punt!). And also I wish people would stop saying how great Bush led us out of 9/11 and how well he handled post-9/11...he did not do anything different than anyone else would have done (that goes for you too, Rudy Guiliani). Al-Qaeda assumed responsibility for 9/11, it's not like we had to investigate who dun' it, and afterwards Bush pretty much said "Find them and kill them" (and anyone who gets in our way)...honestly, Bush isn't a military genius. And also, how 'bout the war in Iraq...no ties to 9/11, no weapons found yet, we went in without UN support, and there are over 1,000 dead soldiers and counting.

People keep calling on Kerry's flip-floppage of the war (didn't some newspaper or news magazine just publish an article about how Bush has flip flopped even more than Kerry?), and even though he had the same intelligence as Bush about Iraq he agreed to go to war IF it was the absolute last resort decision when diplomacy wouldn't work AND we had support from the UN. Bush did not do that. People praise Bush for being decisive about his plans to go to war and stick with it...that's like saying he'd drive into a wall at 90 mph and not blink.Now he says the war is a mistake.Peoplekeep sayingabout Kerrythat "he was for it and now against it"...let's get ALL of the facts on this one, please. Bush was the one who rushed in like an angry Zell "I Challenge You To A Duel" Miller, and because of that hot-headed mistake we are now stuck. Yeah, Saddam is captured...I sure don't feel any safer than four years ago. If were gonna police all threatening nations, then we better get crackin' on North Korea and Iran. People pounce on Kerry whenever he brings up the mistake to go to war and that it's in the past and now we have to deal with it, but honestly he has to talk about that because that isbringing light to amistake Bush made, and do we really want to keep the president who has made such costly mistakes? I feel bad for the soldier's that are over there, and I'm sure many of them think it's ridiculous that they're there.

Sorry, but I think Bush is a failure...unfortunately I think he'll get re-elected anyway. Hell,Iowa has just decided to go Republican. If anyone knows of any site or booksthat has good, OBJECTIVEreasons forBushto be re-elected (NOT why Kerry shouldn't...I think Bush need to reprove himself), then send it to me so I can see what the big deal is. I can swing the other way (not THAT way), but not without A LOT of convincing. I just don't see enough info to justify Bush over Kerry...hell let's re-elect Clinton for fun. He lied about getting a hummer, while Bush lied about intentions of the war; compare and contrast...how many more people died after each one? Zero and over a thousand, respectively.

"Oh wow man! Right beside the snack bar man!" -Tommy Chong

reuber1

10-02-2004, 01:33 AM

Magnus...your last post...golden!http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/emoticons/cheers.gif

Totally agree; "if you screw, you're screwed."

My failed Trojan ad campaign, Trojan Man beat me to it...maybe someone should beat the Trojan Man (innuendo, ladies).

"Oh wow man! Right beside the snack bar man!" -Tommy Chong

defjoe

10-02-2004, 01:52 AM

reuber,

that was a well thought out response and i applaud you and agree with you whole heartedly. I don't see how anyone an logically disput your points.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

40thCentDesign

10-02-2004, 02:44 AM

Reply to Reuber1:

I just don't trust Bush...if he gets re-elected, he'll try to get who he wants into the Supreme Court and then he can make changes to the constitution that will probably ban gay marriage ("ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL...unless you're gay") and make abortions illegal (why more women support Bush than Kerry is beyond me...Bush wants to take away a woman's right to choose);

The founding fathers of the country were extremely traditional on moral issues, so I doubt that a gay marriage "ban" would be contrary to the spirit of the Constitution.

Married women usually go for the conservative candidate. Once they have children (this goes for men, too) moral questions are more clarified and tend to be more traditional. On abortion... well, a lot of young women are now opting for bringing an unwanted child to term rather than aborting it. Health concerns are part of that. San Francisco and the Bay Area out here in CA has one of the highest abortion rates in the country, and also has one of the highest breast cancer rates. Several medical studies maintain that there is a correlation.

Also, I believe thedraftWILL be reinstated if Bush continues in office; our military is more thinned out then ever, and they keep saying that we aren't going to reinstate itbut I think that's just pre-election safety measures...aftera Bush re-election I may have to sneak in to Canada (I'm not religious butone of the 10 commandments does say "Thou shall notkill"...there's no asterisks besides it that says"Unless we think you have weapons of mass destruction").

Go here to read more on that. (http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp)

I'm not one to b!tch that I don't have a career level job because of Bush's destruction of the economy, but I'm also not going to play the 9/11 card like the Rep. Convention and claim that's the reason why so many jobs were lost--I'm sure I have myself to blame--but the state of the economy hasn't made it easier.

Check Wall Street for that one. The already wounded economy, which crashed in 1999 and early 2000 from the dot com bubble, suffered even more from the 9/11 attacks. That's fact, not spin.

And BTW, Bush keeps saying that we have had arise in jobs recently, but that's like saying in a football gameyou have 60 yards in penalties during one drive(that happened to our team in high school) and by third down you make a thirty yard gain; it's impressive, but it's too little too late (time to punt!).

Jobs are rising. It will take a while to regain the strong economy of the '90's. We can't have overnight recovery, and Kerry can't bring that any more than Bush can.

And also I wish people would stop saying how great Bush led us out of 9/11 and how well he handled post-9/11...he did not do anything different than anyone else would have done (that goes for you too, Rudy Guiliani). Al-Qaeda assumed responsibility for 9/11, it's not like we had to investigate who dun' it, and afterwards Bush pretty much said "Find them and kill them" (and anyone who gets in our way)...honestly, Bush isn't a military genius. And also, how 'bout the war in Iraq...no ties to 9/11, no weapons found yet, we went in without UN support, and there are over 1,000 dead soldiers and counting.

See my post above to a friend in France.

People keep calling on Kerry's flip-floppage of the war (didn't some newspaper or news magazine just publish an article about how Bush has flip flopped even more than Kerry?), and even though he had the same intelligence as Bush about Iraq he agreed to go to war IF it was the absolute last resort decision when diplomacy wouldn't work AND we had support from the UN.

No, he didn't. He authorized the use of force in Iraq at the same time as Bush, calling for a preemptive strike. He only changed that after he saw how popular Howard Dean's anti-war stance was. He attacked Dean for being against the war, but then after Dean dropped out, he took up that position as well.

If were gonna police all threatening nations, then we better get crackin' on North Korea and Iran.

Which Bush addressed in the debate.

People pounce on Kerry whenever he brings up the mistake to go to war and that it's in the past and now we have to deal with it, but honestly he has to talk about that because that isbringing light to amistake Bush made, and do we really want to keep the president who has made such costly mistakes? I feel bad for the soldier's that are over there, and I'm sure many of them think it's ridiculous that they're there.

See above.

Sorry, but I think Bush is a failure...unfortunately I think he'll get re-elected anyway. Hell,Iowa has just decided to go Republican. If anyone knows of any site or booksthat has good, OBJECTIVEreasons forBushto be re-elected (NOT why Kerry shouldn't...I think Bush need to reprove himself), then send it to me so I can see what the big deal is.

Ironic. Most of the people I talk to only argue that Bush must be defeated, without giving any reason why Kerry is better. Just "Bush is awful! He's a Nazi!"

I would direct you to James Lileks, who is a moderate about almost everything but the war on terror. He's at www.lileks.com (http://www.lileks.com/). Books... I haven't read many, since I tend not to read political books that I know I will already agree with.

I can swing the other way (not THAT way), but not without A LOT of convincing. I just don't see enough info to justify Bush over Kerry...hell let's re-elect Clinton for fun. He lied about getting a hummer, while Bush lied about intentions of the war; compare and contrast...how many more people died after each one? Zero and over a thousand, respectively.

Well, see above. Bush didn't lie, he based his claims on the current intelligence. Not quite the same.

Ryan8720

10-02-2004, 06:54 AM

I think abortion should be the woman's choice. I think he will fail to make abortion illegal any way. If abortion were illegal, the people who want one will still get them from quack doctors like they did before when it was illegal. That would just endanger more people.

I agree with Magnus that people are stupid. (I kind of sumerized that)

http://www.edgewebdesign.org/images/misc/ryan_staff.gif (http://www.edgewebdesign.org)

reuber1

10-02-2004, 09:44 AM

Thanks for the comment defJoe, but it seems 40th holds as much conviction for the other side, which is commendable, though I'm still not convinced about everyone's appraisal of Bush's cowboy attitude (I want a smart president, not one with balls for the sake of having balls). I had a nice long post typed up with responses to your responses, but I decided to delete it because this could turn into one long ass argument that gets us nowhere. Let's face it 40th, you have your position and I have mine...I have found that anyone can bend statistics, facts,and data to anyway they see fit, as Michael Moore apparently did with Fahrenheit 9/11 (I haven't seen it...yet).

Just a note, though, that the only reason why I said I didn't want any info withKerry bashing is because I've heard enough of it to last until next election (hell I already have a source for that, it's called Fox News). NOTHING has proven to me why Bush is better! I've found the right blasts Kerry as much as the left blasts Bush. The whole thing about us Kerry supporters calling Bush a nazi is a bit exaggerated, I think. I've never heard anybody who supports Kerry use these sorts of comments, and if they do it's unfortunate because the two are not alike...I mean Hitler actually won the popular vote (I KID! I KID!!). But seriously don't assume that all of us HATE Bush; we just don't want him to be president because we don't trust him after the Iraq debacle. As you've said, you're pretty much surrounded by Kerry supporters, whereas I've had to deal with Bush supporters who also say that "Kerry is a friggin' idiot. Bush is ten times smarter." and "Conservatives are more mature than liberals" and other garbage.

Let's wait until the next two debates to see where this is going to go. I really want to hear what Bush says on the economy;I don't buy the helpless excuses he's been giving about it...if I gave excuses like that at my job I'd be fired, but if he is in fact going to be re-elected, then he better instill some comfort in us. We seem to be getting the "Well, sh!t happens, live with it" which is about as patriotic as Toby Keith's personal attacks againstthe Dixie Chicks.

BTW, Toby Keith is a knob.

"Oh wow man! Right beside the snack bar man!" -Tommy Chong

wango

10-02-2004, 12:51 PM

I think both Bush & Kerry make poor leaders. Bush is an unintelligent, puppet of an arrogant administration that refuses to accept responsibility for its actions,& hold itself accountable for the degradation of the world mightiest economic engine.They have allienated most of our closest allies, and despite Bush's tremendous (yet mis-directed) efforts, have rekindled the terrorist spirit & agenda. Kerry on the other hand is an indecisive, aristocrat who married into a fortune that his wife didn’t even earn. How can a multi-billionaire be in tune with the needs of the poor, middle class and everyday Americans. Kerry’s position can be summed up as, “Whatever Bush does wrong, I promise to do the opposite.Unless of course - I change my mind later”. He has no energy, charisma or even a valid personality - how can a man with a computer chip for a brain appeal to any majority. He refuses to stick to a consistant platform and his indecisiveness & inconsistancies will weaken his authority, respect & influence as a global leader.

My point is this; democracy is about having the opportunity to choose your leaders, those who represent you & most importantly your interests and values. Their was a time not to long ago when you had the privilege of choosing who was best for America, instead of who was least worse. I think to many people in this society are caught up in the politics, "I hate Bush because im a liberal", or "I hate Kerry because all democrats support abortion". Wake up people, mass media and the political machine have blinded you from your most prevelent assests, your intuition, values and rationality. We call ourselves the greatest nation in the world, yet despite hundreds of “promises,” we have been denied something as fundamental as universal free health care. How is it that Canada – a country with about 10% the GDP of America can provide this for its citizens, yet for the past 228 years our citizens have struggled to buy the overpriced medications they NEED for survival. Some may think there's no money for such a health care revolution but, we spend more money on our military alone - than every single nation in the world COMBINED! Yet our jobs continue to go to the third world, gay HUMAN BIENGS are being denied the same fundamental rights given to the rest of us (and no, I’m not), the social fabric of American society continues to crumble, and their may be no social security in the future of America’s youth. This is why I, and many of my fellow citizens, are choosing not to vote this year - I figure a vote for either one is a wasted effort. Maybe i'll return to the polls when their's someone worth my endosment. Im19 years old, and know many young people share my views. And politicians continue wonder why many youth CHOOSE not to vote.

-(Who do I think won the debate?...Senator Kerry, but only because President Bush had trouble articulating his agenda.)

http://www.geocities.com/wangaworks_design/logo_preview.gif (http://www.wangaworks.com)

Post Edited (vwanga) : 10/2/2004 9:28:39 AM GMT

Kool

10-02-2004, 05:42 PM

reuber1 said...

BTW, Toby Keith is a knob.

LOL I bet I know who Toby is voting for. /emoticons/biggrin.gif

I love children but I don't think I could eat a whole one.

reuber1

10-02-2004, 10:01 PM

What vwanga said. What vwanga said, indeed; like I said above..."do we really need a president?"

"Oh wow man! Right beside the snack bar man!" -Tommy Chong

40thCentDesign

10-02-2004, 11:27 PM

reuber1: Well, we agree on something. Toby Keith is a knob. Here's a few other knobs I can think of:

Bill O'Reilly
Michael Moore
Michael Savage
Al Franken
Alan Keyes

I'd have to put the Dixie Chicks in too. They have every right to their opinions, but their pathetic whining about being ostracized by their fans was embarrassing. Country fans are overwhelmingly redneck conservatives, so bashing Bush while in Europe isn't going to sit well with them. Like, duh. Don't come crying to me when they react badly; either roll with the punches or shut the hell up.

I liked Alice Cooper's assessment of the current musician/activist craze:

'To me, that's treason,' Cooper told the Canadian Press. 'I call it treason against rock 'n' roll because rock is the antithesis of politics. Rock should never be in bed with politics.'

'When I was a kid and my parents started talking about politics, I'd run to my room and put on the Rolling Stones as loud as I could. So when I see all these rock stars up there talking politics, it makes me sick.

'If you're listening to a rock star in order to get your information on who to vote for, you're a bigger moron than they are. Why are we rock stars? Because we're morons. We sleep all day, we play music at night and very rarely do we sit around reading the Washington Journal.'

40thCentDesign

10-02-2004, 11:32 PM

I also hate the phrase 'Wake up, America!!!' Usually used by conservative nut-jobs or left-wing crazies who assume that their brilliant insights will cause everyone to awake from their intellectual slumber and begin to think exactly like them.

Bleh.

malakai

10-02-2004, 11:54 PM

[quote]

40thCentDesign said...

Reply to Reuber1:

I just don't trust Bush...if he gets re-elected, he'll try to get who he wants into the Supreme Court and then he can make changes to the constitution that will probably ban gay marriage ("ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL...unless you're gay") and make abortions illegal (why more women support Bush than Kerry is beyond me...Bush wants to take away a woman's right to choose);

The founding fathers of the country were extremely traditional on moral issues, so I doubt that a gay marriage "ban" would be contrary to the spirit of the Constitution.Two things:

First, the Constitution was not designed to restrict the rights of American citizens, it was designed to guarantee their rights. Any attempt to limit the rights of a subset of Americans on the basis of something such as race, sexual orientation, or religion, is contrary to the spirit of the Constitution.

Second, the founding fathers were so traditional as to exclude many rights from women and black people, among other groups. They are not our contemporaries. Looking to them for moral guidance with respect to civil rights in our time would be to deny the enlightenment behind suffrage and the Civil Rights Act.

wango

10-03-2004, 02:02 AM

40thCentDesign said...
”I also hate the phrase 'Wake up, America!!!' Usually used by conservative nut-jobs or left-wing crazies who assume that their brilliant insights will cause everyone to awake from their intellectual slumber and begin to think exactly like them.

Bleh.”

----------------------------

Every pancaking election we are promised; lower prescription drug prices, major tax breaks, tougher corporate accountability, education reform & extra recess. Yet President by elected President, these fundamentals of growth & progress continue to go unreformed. I am in no way trying to start some pathetic alternative revolution or wake the nation from their cerebral slumber; I’m just stating the obvious. 'Promises' continue to go un-kept - by almost every party & subsequent career politician at almost every political level, and yet we continue to vote for them because their often the lesser of two evils. I don't think I have to elaborate or justify the partisan moralities of the American politician to prove my point. No I’m not some wack-job pundant – I’m just a kid who realizes the patheticness of our political & media driven ignorance (yes, me too).

...And if you are assuming I’m aligned with any of the partisan traits you specified above, your ignorance shows 40thCentDesign. But I do appreciate your counterpoint.

***VWANGA FOR PRESIDENT***
***ZARTAN FOR VICE PRESIDENT***
2004 - Forever!

First America -Then The World!

"Were not asking for your vote people,were pancaking demanding it!"

************

40thCentDesign

10-03-2004, 11:10 AM

Vwanga sez: I’m just a kid who realizes the patheticness of our political & media driven ignorance...

40th sez: Well, back when I was 18 I started freelance writing for various magazines & newspapers (long before I started GD). I used a lot of the 'Wake up!' rhetoric back then. No offense, but it always comes off bad. I cringe when I read the crap I wrote back then.

As far as media... it really depends on the media you rely on. I usually read news online from the AP and Reuters, but also read BBC and Guardian reports (English papers are little more 'no holds barred' than the US). For opinion, National Review Online, Slate, Lileks, Arts & Letters Daily, and the Atlantic Monthly. So if you condemn all media and politics, you aren't gonna get anywhere.

I think more people are savvy than you may think. And (thank god) most of the folks that I know that aren't politically savvy don't vote.

wango

10-03-2004, 11:38 AM

I completely agree 40thCent, and I wasn't condemning all media, I'm saying as an American citizen, a lot of us are deprived of unbiased viewpoints and political perspectives by the American media juggernaught. And if you read my post again - when I said; 'Wake up...' I was referring to the ignorant people who say:

'I hate Bush because I'm a liberal', or 'I hate Kerry because all democrats support abortion'.

...that I increasingly come in contact with, not America in general. I prefer many international news sources to domestic as well, my favorite being the BBC - (they had a great editorial piece once about why America is often disliked by global society, that got me hooked), but we - as residents of this nation are oft deprived of such refreshing perspectives & viewpoints. I’m not trying to change the world - a silly notion, just expressing my young, objective views of a society I have increasingly began to loathe.

-I agree ignorant people shouldn't be encouraged to vote, but we all are plagued with it's wretchedness to some degree:).

Viva la ignorancia!

***VWANGA FOR PRESIDENT***
***ZARTAN FOR VICE PRESIDENT***
2004 - Forever!

First America -Then The World!

"Were not asking for your vote people,were pancaking demanding it!"

************