Cyan = Blue

[itry2brational]

When in the print industry, do the professionals use Cyan and Blue interchangeably? Are they the same color? If a third person were observing print professionals talk, would they catch them using terms like Cyan and Blue and they mean the same thing?

Would this be a correct statement:
"...cyan IS blue"

If not, how could this third person be mistaken if they overheard print professionals aparently use them interchangeably? If this person attested to print professionals actually saying "cyan is blue" while on her job, is she simply mistaken or perhaps misunderstanding?

[budafist]

No. I wouldn't call Cyan=blue. If someone said blue I would ask them what PMS they were talking about!

A civilian might call cyan=blue though.

[Tiffany Pilgrim]

Ageed. A civillian might call cyan blue.

-T

[John G]

lol support your local veteran

[tZ]

In theory a magenta and cyan mix is "blue". Don't currently have the book with me, but I'm pretty sure thats what it says.

[itry2brational]

Could any of the 'veterans' explain the discrepancy? How is it that I visit printing and photography forums and I see people use the phrases 'cyan(blue)' or 'cyan-blue' or 'cyan/blue'? What does this mean?

How is a civilian making a mistake when they claim that if print professionals apparently use them interchangeably that means they are the exact same color?

Thanks for your help.

[SpugNothuson]

Cyan is Cyan.

Cyan is a Blue. But so is Relfex Blue and a large number of other Pantones.

If the person were a "Print" professional if they said Blue to me I would not be thinking in terms of Cyan. If the person was a "Design" professional I would clarify the term with them as I have had other designers give their images to me for manipulation work and they have used the term blue where they should be saying Cyan.

When I first went into print I would often get scowled at by the other workers if I misused the terms Cyan and Blue. They even pulled a trick on me one day and whilst on makereadies they used blue instead of Cyan for a full colour set. Saved the complete botch up till the end and then showed me it as a finished piece. They had me worrying about a £10,000 reprint on a job for ages. All I could think was, "the boss is going to fire my ass!" I learned my lesson soon after.

[CkretAjint]

Cyan is cyan, and blue is blue. Kinda like Peach is not Salmon, and Blood Red is not Muave.

[SpugNothuson]

I would guess that these other forums aren't as pedantic as our goodselves here.

In print you have CMYK (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black) in photography you have RGB (Red, Green and Blue). I'd be extremely careful what colours I mentioned when discussing either topics.

[Kool]

Cyan is blue but blue isn't necessarily cyan. There are hundreds of shades of blue, cyan is only one of them.

[itry2brational]

SpugNothuson,

So would Cyan then be equally as much Green as it is Blue? In either case, I want to be clear that I feel they are not the same color. To say they are the exact same color would be like saying that Green IS Yellow, no? Incidentally, this is a another claim my friend takes.

[CkretAjint]

Cyan is DEFINATELY NOT a green! If anything I would say it is a darker sky blue... Perhaps even baby blue?

[itry2brational]

Cyan is blue but blue isn't necessarily cyan. There are hundreds of shades of blue, cyan is only one of them.

But to say that Cyan IS Blue would mean that there is no difference between the two? And if we take this line of reasoning, then yellow IS Red but Red is not necessarily Yellow? (or vice versa)

Could you not also say 'Cyan is Green but Green is not necessarily Cyan'? Which logically gets extremely confusing.

I understand that there are hundreds of shades, but isn't that the point? Each is unique and each is not the exact same color. What my antagonist is saying is that they ARE the same color. There is no difference.

[SpugNothuson]

You can look at the colour Cyan and argue that it is a light blue, pale blue, whatever term you'd like to call it. But not green.

In the printing world adding Magenta to Cyan will indeed give you a Blue. Adding Yellow will give you Green. Just because Cyan is involved in the mix doesn't make it a variant of Green though.

This would be because when you describe a colour you're generally not talking from an Ink mixture point of view you're talking in terms of light wavelengths.

[PrintDriver]

A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.

And on a Photography forum be sure they aren't talking about film rather than inkjets. On your inkjet it's CMYK but in film it is RGB (red/green/blue).

[Kool]

But to say that Cyan IS Blue would mean that there is no difference between the two? And if we take this line of reasoning, then yellow IS Red but Red is not necessarily Yellow? (or vice versa)

Blue is a primary color as is yellow and red. All colors are made from some combination of the three. Your logic is faulty. It's like saying a screwdriver is a tool and a wrench is a tool therefore they are the same.

[itry2brational]

A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.

And on a Photography forum be sure they aren't talking about film rather than inkjets. On your inkjet it's CMYK but in film it is RGB (red/green/blue).

But when using RGB, isn't Cyan simply an equal combination of Blue and Green? So would I not be correct in saying that Green is Cyan as well? I don't understand how we can say that Cyan IS Blue without being able to also say that Cyan IS Green.

I guess what I am getting at is since Cyan is a perfect 50/50 combination of two colors, then it is equally both colors and equally neither color, no? It is its own color, unique. Just like other shades of color.

[SpugNothuson]

This helps to explain it quite well;

http://www.grandideas.com/images/uploads/Image/color-wheel.gif
Primary colours are the colours that cannot be made by combining any other colours. These are red, yellow, and blue and can be blended together in varying amounts to make any other colour.
Secondary colours are the three colours that are made by combining two of the primary colours together. They are orange, purple and green and on the wheel lie between the two primary colours that they are the combination of. Orange is made by combining red and yellow, purple from red and blue and green from blue and yellow. Tertiary colours are the six colours on the wheel made from combining a primary colour with its neighbouring secondary colours, at a ratio of two to one. So, for example, pink would be made by combining two litres of red with one litre of purple.

[SpugNothuson]

But when using RGB, isn't Cyan simply an equal combination of Blue and Green? So would I not be correct in saying that Green is Cyan as well? I don't understand how we can say that Cyan IS Blue without being able to also say that Cyan IS Green.
You're mixing subtractive coulour logic with additive colour logic.

You can not compare Cyan ink in terms of RGB.

[tZ]

the whole is greater than the sum of its parts

[itry2brational]

RGB Color Model
Additive color model
For computer displays
Uses light to display color
Colors result from transmitted light
Red+Green+Blue=White

http://www.sketchpad.net/images/rgb.gif

CMYK Color Model
Subtractive color model
For printed material
Uses ink to display color
Colors result from reflected light
Cyan+Magenta+Yellow=Black

http://www.sketchpad.net/images/cmyk.gif

I understand the difference, but as in the RGB model, and going by what Kool is saying, that 'Cyan is Blue but Blue is not necessarily Cyan' can we not also say it about Green? I just don't see how someone can say that Cyan = Blue...when I look at them I see two distinctly different colors.

[budafist]

I don't even want to think about RGB explanations. I work in print so the CMYK cyan/blue is what I'm interested in.

[PrintDriver]

Why are you arguing. Print pros don't call cyan 'blue'. Which was your original question. A photo forum might use the term cyan/blue to include both forms of producing photo images. You have to use one curve system or the other if messing with your files in Photoshop. If your image is too 'warm', in CMYK you mess with cyan, in RGB you mess with Blue. It all depends on how you are 'printing the image.

And I take exception to the two color models you have up there. RGB is not just for monitors. There is an RGB print process that prints to photo film using lasers. It isn't all about the monitor.

[Kool]

http://koolsplace.com/images/blink.gif

[SpugNothuson]

You're not considering the RYB colour wheel that the majority of us are brought up on. It isn't until later life that we're introduced to RGB and then some of us develop knowledge of CMYK.

This is the RYB colour wheel and it's secondary colours. Read my previous post above for more details on this;
http://www.grandideas.com/images/uploads/Image/color-wheel.gif

[SpugNothuson]

What you also might want to research is Psychological Colour Models (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opponent_process).

You have to remember that just because something appears to be logic, it doesn't make it right. Tradition is a bitch like that.

[itry2brational]

PrintDriver,

I am just asking questions. My friend says that 'print professionals' specifically said "Cyan is Blue" while she was present. I contend that she merely misunderstood them when they said such things because it is obvious to me, and apparently everyone here, that Blue and Cyan are not the same color...they are different colors. I merely think that the 'print professionals' were speaking in terms of taking an image or design which was on a screen or display and transfering it to print media, in which case they would most likely have been discussing going from one color model to the other and vice versa but NOT that 2 different colors are the exact same color. Know what I mean? I just think she misunderstood the discussion. It would appear you agree, that she just misunderstood what was being discussed.

[SpugNothuson]

I would argue the term "print professional" in this case.

I hope my above post have adequately explained why Cyan is without a shadow of a doubt NOT green.

[budafist]

I am just asking questions. My friend says that 'print professionals' specifically said "Cyan is Blue" while she was present.

Well, then your friend is confused...and confusing the rest of us.

[PrintDriver]

Did your friend know the difference between blue and cyan? The printer could have been condescending toward her.

[itry2brational]

I would argue the term "print professional" in this case.

I hope my above post have adequately explained why Cyan is without a shadow of a doubt NOT green.
Thank you very much for your help! I do understand! I think we got hung up on semantics a little during the discussion. And at times it appears to make things illogical. My only problem is that my friend thinks that because she heard these so-called 'print professionals' say 'cyan is blue' that they meant they are the exact same color. I just wanted to confirm her misunderstanding with people who really do work in the industry.

I understand that in order to create cyan we need to mix blue with another color(RGB) and if we want to create blue we have to mix cyan with another color(CMYK).

Her confusion has lead to making other statements such as 'Red IS Magenta' and so on. I agree, it is confusing.

Did your friend know the difference between blue and cyan? The printer could have been condescending toward her.
Its possible but this was a job and a professional environment. I just think she was confused or misunderstood. With your help and others I think we can safely say that she either heard incorrectly or misunderstood the pros when they were talking. Agreed?

Again, thanks to everyone for contributing. I appreciate it.

[itry2brational]

I found on another forum that a person in the industry put it this way, which makes a lot fo sense:

My best guess would be the people she was around were using inaccurate terminology, but everyone "knew what it meant" and it was simply never corrected. For example, around here, we have digital presses, and when someone says "blue ink" I know they mean Cyan, because there is no blue ink available for those machines. Magenta became "red" in the same fashion. I just gave up saying anything.

[Kool]

They could have been speaking in generalities too. "What color is cyan?" "It's blue" "What color is magenta?" "It's red" although "a blue" and "a red" would have been more accurate. While red and blue are distinct primary colors they are also a broad term for all the shades of blue and red. Indigo is blue, so is navy blue and baby blue. Completely different colors but all still blue.

[budafist]

I guess it's like how today my non-designer friend claimed that a logo (designed in a font similar to frutiger), had been done in comic sans.

When I told her it definitely wasn't comic sans, she wanted to know why I thought that. I think to her, as long as it's a sans serif, it passes.

I appreciate her efforts to recognise fonts, but uh...yeah...

[frankster]

Has all this arisen because the person is confusing process blue with process cyan? They are a similar i suppose, but are not the same colour.

[itry2brational]

frankster,

I actually think this is the best explanation for her confusion. Someone put it this way:

Printers therefore often speak of "process colors": process-blue (cyan), process-red (magenta), process-yellow (oddly enough, yellow), and, of course, process-black. There is no process-green. I imagine they get tired of saying "process" all the time and just shorten it down.
My last two posts/quotes are directly from people who work in the industry and I think we can see how any layman would confuse what they heard for something else or missunderstand what they meant. It all makes more and more sense to me, anyway.

[Tiffany Pilgrim]

But when using RGB, isn't Cyan simply an equal combination of Blue and Green? So would I not be correct in saying that Green is Cyan as well? I don't understand how we can say that Cyan IS Blue without being able to also say that Cyan IS Green.

I guess what I am getting at is since Cyan is a perfect 50/50 combination of two colors, then it is equally both colors and equally neither color, no? It is its own color, unique. Just like other shades of color.


Ok Spug, you've got all the color theory right. I almost chimed in but every time I thought I would say something I scrolled down and saw you already said it.

International. Besides the fact that you are forgetting the major differences between subtractive and additive, where are you getting your info from that cyan is equal parts blue and green?

http://tinyurl.com/3ynfmf

[Mynock]

There used to be a commercial for some product where the bomb squad person was told to cut the "cyan" wire. Anyone remember that ad?

[CkretAjint]

There used to be a commercial for some product where the bomb squad person was told to cut the "cyan" wire. Anyone remember that ad?

No. I sure would like to see that though! :p

[Mynock]

Can't find it online. Hmmmm.

[seamas]

I think much confusion revolves around all the various types of primary colors, there is the additive (RGB) and subtractive (CMY), as well as the type used by painters (RBY).

Then there are assessments based on culture/psychology.

There are cultures where there is no dicernment between blue and green.

But in the West, we most certainly do see a difference between blue and green -green being so important, that some (artistic) color theorists treat green as an additional primary, largely due to green being smack in the middle of out visual spectrum, and the fact that green is so dominant in nature.

That said, these cultural reasons are why many would see Cyan as being blue (though not as a "primary blue" in the RGB or painter's primary) and NOT green.

For some reason (probably cultural), Magenta does not have nearly as strong association to Red as cyan does to blue.
(if you held a magenta swatch up to 100 people, rarely would anyone say it's "red" -but if you were to hold a cyan swatch up to 100 people, you'd get close to 100 people saying that the swatch is blue)
Perhaps it's because we have a different (common) name for light red (pink), which primary and secondary colors doen't have.

Then we have the violet/purple issue, where once "purple" was once associated only with the very reddish-marroon (or even a "deep/dark" magenta) color.
Nowadays the words "purple" and "violet" are used interchangably.

[MikeHun]

I'm surprised no has mentioned Hexachrome and the green / orange
representation there. I believe if I'm not mistaken the rgb gamut
encompasses cmyk

[Mynock]

If I can see the colors on my screen on the graph doesn't that mean they are in the RGB gamut?

[MikeHun]

You mean like a darker forest green and a reddishy Blue?;)

[CkretAjint]

no, like the cyan. ;)

[MikeHun]

That response was as cyan-ical as the rest:)

[budafist]

There are cultures where there is no dicernment between blue and green.

I'll agree with that. There are certain colour names that are used interchangeably in Cantonese. People will call anything with a red tone (red, orange, peach, pink) red. Even when there are words for the specific tone of red. I used to get mad when my grandmother called something that was orange as red or pink too actually.

[Virgo Nightingale]

There are cultures in Africa who only have two words for color, which translate loosely to "warm" and "cool".

[Red Kittie Kat]

There are cultures that spell it color and others that spell it colour


:D .. sorry couldn't resist

[garricks]

The preceeding five pages of color theory discussion have been brought to you by:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/garricks/PantoneFan.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/garricks/BBU%20avatars/LolLolLolLol.gif


And for the record, my Pantone fan has both Process Blue and Process Cyan in it. And they are very different colors.

[budafist]

Because Pantone are the authority in colour.

[garricks]

When I order a job in Pantone 287 blue, I get

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/garricks/GDF/Picture14.png

and not

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/garricks/GDF/Picture15.png

I didn't mean to offend, just to be flippant. :)

We have standard systems (not just Pantone) to describe colors in a common way. And calling cyan "Process Blue" is just confusing. And confusion leads to mistakes and misunderstanding.
:D

[PixMix]

Every color, is defined by three properties:

HUE - which is the generic name of the color

VALUE - the relative degree of lightness or darkness of a color, and

INTENSITY or SATURATION (also often referred to as CHROMA) - the purity or brilliance of a color.


This is true for both subtractive and additive color systems. Cyan is an industry term. Hue-wise it's a blue. Not a green or any other color.
I agree with the poster who said that "Cyan is a blue, but not all the blues are cyan...", because there are obviously many other colors that HUE-wise, are variations of blue (ultramarine, cobalt blue etc.), but they differ in VALUE and INTENSITY from that specific blue that we call cyan.

Just my $0.2. :)

[Optimusdinkus]

This thread is about as symantically profound as a philosophy class dealing with ethics by world nations ffs. lol

Color is THE most subjective quality in our field I'm convinced, and because of this, I dont think a right answer even exists. Shapes have some definitive meaning (an eye is a damn eye, a nose a nose), but color freaking goes all the way side of everyone practically. Every culture which encompases groupings upon groupings of individuals can see color and have it mean something completly different for 5 or so people of that same culture for god sakes.

Because of this, why even try to answer an ever evolving question to which no solid meaning exists?

Even the "warmth" of a color is near the same as its saturation practically. Hell a highly saturated red and a highly saturated blue are the contrast, but they both share the same quality of highly saturated or desaturated and can be changed without the quality of warmth being modified,

Plus just for those two colors can the property of warmth exist (maybe orange but still) so why even give it a whole 'nother property?