What would it take to "license" Graphic Designers in the US and Canada? [Archive]

wango

10-03-2004, 10:33 AM

Well I honestly don't think it would make a huge difference, whether you had a piece of paper stating you’re a licensed designer or not. In this economy (an all too common business excuse) clients will continue to select the cheapest quote possible, to pad their bottom line. With the saturation of the design market today, their will always be someone willing whore themselves, and a growing number of business waiting to take advantage of them. I consider a 'license' no more prevalent than a degree, and a degree in today's society is way to often overlooked. However, I'm well on my way to a BS - but I know plenty of graduates who don't know a thing about prepress, and other important fundamentals of our field. My point is, even a degree doesn't necessarily qualify you as a 'good' well rounded designer because who defines what good actually is? And who's to say that a universal license won't face the same inevitable fate. I honestly believe that things will improve in the near future; just as Darwin taught us - 'Survival of the fittest', many of these so called 'designers' simply cannot fiscally maintain themselves under the current conditions. Society always has a way of balancing out, and as harsh as it is to say; many of us won't survive this balancing process. Just as the trade markets teach us time & again, when a field gets to saturated the value of the occupation dramatically falls, consequently those who cannot maintain in the depreciation are forced out. Eventually as this trend grows - demand rises & subsequently value appreciates once again. Just hope & pray you make it to the other side of the hill - for those will be the ones who truly collect the spoils.

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idaho

10-04-2004, 08:07 PM

VWANGA is right. It's all about the economy and what people are willing to pay for our services. Some clients are willing to except less if they have to pay less. My big complaint is that there are actually high schools out there that are teaching Photoshop, InDesign, Quark and other programs as well as essential GD skills that most of us spent several years and thousands of dollars learning in college. If any high school teachers are reading this please stop teaching the software.

Top that off with the number of wanna-be's that download the same software using Kazaa or some other programs and learn it on their own. Those people are killing the GD business. If any of those software stealers are on the list, you can all go to hell! (sorry, I'm bitter!)

I'm really not a big fan of Unions but I wish we could find some way of making one work. They use one in the movie industry. Why not GD?

PrintDriver

10-04-2004, 08:59 PM

I'm thinking Vwanga is right. The subject is just a little touchy around here cuz of the work I do.

I don't care if High Schools are teaching the programs if they are teaching them correctly. Some of our interns have been Trade School kids and they get it a hell of a lot better than some of the designers who think they already know it.

As for stealing software. What comes round goes round. May it crap out on you at the most inopportune time.

Let's not push for a Union. How bout something more like the AMA or the Bar Exam.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

Eraser Nubbin

10-04-2004, 09:11 PM

I personally think that unions are bullcrap, there was a time and place for them but get real, it's not like we work in coal mines.

I agree with VWANGA as well, if you are skilled at what you do and are able to market yourself accordingly you should not have anything to worry about. If you don't have skills and can't sell yourself then you are in the wrong spot anyways. I think that unions attract opportunistic individuals that don't feel obligated to carry there own wait, further more I think that unions would further alienate clients from designers. Maybe attempting to inform clients about design and what it is that they are paying for as opposed to banding together and forcing them to ante up would be the way to go.

I mean, I would choose to go back to digging trenches before I'd take a $8 an hour job doing graphic design. If someone else chooses to take that job for that pay, that is there business.

And telling teachers to not teach that stuff in school? Come on! Thats BS too. Thats the way the world works man. Do you think that the guys that learned how to mock up magazines with glue sticks and scissors were to happy to see the advent of desktop publishing? I think its a good thing that they are getting trained on that stuff early and it should be looked at as healthy competition.

Maybe I'm just young and naive and I'm sure that my tune would change if I had a wife, kids and a mortage to support but all these complaints directed at young designers gets old. I here all this talk about unskilled designers eating up the workplace, but what does that say about us if we are concerned about talentless competition?

Match in the gas tank, boom boom.

Magnus

10-04-2004, 09:35 PM

Gas fitters, welders, electricians, milwrights, heating/air conditioning installers...ALL require some type of licensing in order to do their job. Sure, you can find some guy that CAN do it even though he doesn't have the certification...but what type of risk are you taking?

VWanga, you speak of trends in the economy and oversaturation of the market place. Consider this. Desktop publishing as it evolves in terms of software and availability to the consumer will only increase in direct relation to time. Our situation is not going to improve to the standard you speak of for the simple, undeniable fact that the means of becoming a designer in one night are acessable to anyone that has a computer.

Why not take a few steps to ensure we protect at least part of our market, and better yet, the quality and good name of our work?

But instead of that, I get some people on this thread that posted a bunch of garbage on how it was NOT possible to do this. My question was 'What would it take to 'license' Graphic Designers in the US and Canada?'. My question was NOT 'What are some good reasons to shit can this idea?'

I am aware that there are obstacles in attempting to do something like this, especially on such a large scale. If it was attempted, it would probably take years and years to make good on it. It is hard enough dealing with the main hurdles of a problem, without other people focusing on the problem and not the solution.

So, while the posts here were informative and well written, they have nothing to do with the question or problem I presented. I don't want to have to sift through people's posts of what they think will be problematic with this issue, I can do that on my own thanks.

I asked for solutions, I asked for ways and ideas on 'how to'. I didn't get that...

That tells me that either A) Some people can't read and understand english B) People don't want to put the time into thinking of a solution.

In either case, don't waste my time by posting here.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

morea

10-04-2004, 09:43 PM

This is a little beyond me, Magnus, so I'm just speculating...

Seems that in order to get licensed or certified in something you have to attend specific training and take some sort of evaluation to prove that you know what you're doing. Even people who sell insurance have to go through the trainning and get a license for each area of insurance they want to sell.

Seems like designers who want to become 'licensed' could test in each program or area (print / large format / web) they want to be licensed in and maybe end up with some special letters to put after their names.

Not sure how to standardize this though.... ideas?

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

Eraser Nubbin

10-04-2004, 09:57 PM

Are there not already associations that have attempted this?
I don't mean to dump on your idea here, but very few of the jobs that I see posted even list having been GDC / RGD acredited as a plus let alone a requirement. Maybe having a look at these types of organizations would be a place to start and figure out what it is that has been unsuccessful with there efforts.

Match in the gas tank, boom boom.

Jeff Fisher LogoMotives

10-04-2004, 11:56 PM

The province of Ontario Canada does have a graphic design certification program in place. You can find more information at www.rgdontario.com/aboutus/rgdontario.php (http://www.rgdontario.com/aboutus/rgdontario.php)

Here's a CreativeLatitude article about the topic: www.creativelatitude.com/licensed/index.html (http://www.creativelatitude.com/licensed/index.html)

- Jeff

:: :: :: :: :: :: ::

Jeff Fisher :: Engineer of Creative Identity
Jeff Fisher LogoMotives
http://www.jfisherlogomotives.com

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Member - HOW Magazine Editorial Advisory Board :: 2005 HOW Design Conference Advisory Board

Author - 'The Savvy Designer's Guide to Success: Ideas and tactics for a killer career'
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Post Edited (Jeff Fisher LogoMotives) : 10/4/2004 7:58:01 PM GMT

10-05-2004, 12:49 AM

This sounds like a great idea. A test is a must but it also must be hard.

As far as aesthetics go it’s hard to test but here are some points that can’t get passed by;

• Balance in your design (this can get hard to nail when we deal with abstract design but we need some kind of guideline for it all)

• Understanding Color meanings and emotions

• Making work readable and layout (this can fall into balance but it in itself is a section)

• Output (How to get stuff printed etc.)

• Format (why use PDF, why use vector, why use toilets instead of craping on the floor)

Now we need a lot more then a print work test we need offset work, large format, and if we get into web design this opens up a whole monster.

We need an agreement of what are the most important and must have things to do great design. Like Magus said if anyone we can come up with this.

I’m all for it Magnus, I know we have the talent and experience to develop this and I don’t see why we can’t get government grants to actually accomplish this.

You seem very serious about this and if you are I’m willing to help.

http://www.cbcamerica.com/images/webshots/benjobanner.jpg
Graphic Design Heroes! Call me Captain Type Caster. I’ve fought off “The Evil Cosmic Sans” for year but it seems “Dr. Extreme Untalent” keeps bringing him back. I must find a way to defeat this evil creature.

Capt. Creative bring me those comps…

Magnus

10-05-2004, 01:06 AM

Yeah, I'm aware of the RGD, however, the're top of the line designers, not intended for the everyday trooper like most of us are. A good friend of mine is one of the founding members of the RGD here in Ontario, and he even admitted it won't open any doors job wise.

The purpose of the licensing would be more to stop the degradation of the graphic design marketplace by weeding out all non-designers.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

PrintDriver

10-05-2004, 02:21 AM

Mag, it also rests on us as printers.
If all the print vendors banded together and wouldn't print stuff done by people who are uncertified, or would charge higher for those who aren't, maybe that would help make it work.

The only problems are, we are losing jobs overseas faster than Nike and there is a glut of over-nighters who buy large format printers or an offset press and call themselves a print shop without knowing Thing One about it. They undercut our pricing and saturate the market with bad prints made by bad designers. We have to eat too so we do any job that walks in the door.

I've done 'mop up' on exhibits where the designers went with the lowest bidder. Not a pretty site.
Very sad.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

uncle carbunkle

10-05-2004, 03:48 AM

so then maybe it's not about licensing and accreditation - because it's all so subjective. maybe it's more like what pd said. making alliances with reputable printers that will not print poorly set up work, or work from designers not on their 'list'.

and what 'list' is that? here comes the subjectivity.

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PrintDriver

10-05-2004, 04:28 AM

Oh I have a 'list' Unc.
But you don't WANT to be on that one. LOL!

I think the subjectivity has to be dumped. You can't judge a designer on composition or layout. No one will ever agree on what is Good Design. And you don't want other designers judging you. Look at the Showcase forum some days.

File formats, Program use performance, Output are about the only things I can think of that can be done Quantitatively. Perhaps some color theory and history too. Multiple choice and performance tests.

Web design would have to be out there on their own. Sorry.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

ControlZ

10-05-2004, 07:37 AM

First I'd like to say to Magnus...I don't get the feeling anyone is trying to dump on your idea. There are just a lot of very valid comments made on this thread both for and against the idea of licensing. Always remember, open discusion brings about great solutions.

But Ihave to agree with pd. I've been in the business nearly 17 years now and it's just too speculative. There are so many different ideas about what is right and wrong, and the older I get the more I realize that I may not know what cool is anymore. So what is good design? I know what effective design is, but effectivesure as @#$! doesn't win ADDY awards. And what was cool last year ain't cool this year.

PD I'd love itif the print houses could buckle down on bad designers, charging them accordingly for their screw ups at pre-press. Now that would be cool. Believe me the wanabees wouldn't survive long if they kept getting hit withextra charges every time they delivered a screwed up job. However, I understand the dilema the print industry is in as well.

Ikeep hoping the software manufacturers will finally develop controls to stop the theft of pirated software too, so that I don't feel like the only schmuck who actually pays. I'm pretty bitter about that.

However,if you did manage to get a licensing system up and running; one, have you ever heard of under-the-table?; two, who would police such a system?; and three, legal action against infractions is expensive. And how wouldcompanies like Adobe survive if GD's where the only people allowed to buy their software? There's a slew of domino effects that would take place.

Okay, I could right a book on this. http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/emoticons/oops.gif I just did! NEXT.

ControlZ

Love what you do, and do what you love! What could be better?

Leny

10-05-2004, 01:27 PM

Hey all.

Magnus, this intiative you speak of is exactly what the GDC and AIGA represent. Licensing is important, however, many ' Graphic Designers' are just as ignorant of their responsibilities, as the people they try to educate. Understand that before we ( Graphic Design Professionals) are able to communicate the relevance and importance of our profession to the community, we need to practice as professionals. It has been mentioned many times before, that any other profession ( Doctor , Lawyer, Accountant) would never undercut or reduce the value of their services. A designer ( worth their salt) wouldn't do that. Learn the rules, adhere to them, and hold your standards high. Become a GDC or AIGA member and edcuate yourself.

Print shops have nothing to do with Graphic Design. They are the output, a part of the process. A print shop should charge for the work done to fix or open a file. That is obvious. But any respectable designer would never send a bad file to tender. It wastes time and money. If a printer has to do your job, then you are not a very contientous graphic designer. Printshops that black list specific designers are only affecting their bottomline. That doesn't affect our profession. It only eliminates the incompetent; amateur designers that probably not competitive anyways. Printshops lose out, not us. All of the reputable printshops I collaborate with understand they're roll. I don't see why any printshop tech should care about how something is designed, its not they're responsibility. Either take the crap job, fix it, and charge them. Or just refuse their buisness. Any school can teach you to use a program, a good school helps you to become a good designer.

PrintDriver

10-05-2004, 03:40 PM

This is exactly my point.
Leny believes respectable designers NEVER send bad files to printers and that printers aren't even part of the equation 'having nothing to do with Graphic Design'. GDC and AIGA speaking again. Without us you can get out your deskjet, dude.

I don't care how it is designed. I don't care what it looks like. Hell, I don't even proofread it on purpose if I'm not paid to do it (though I might point something out as a courtesy). BUT. If I can't print it, then it's junk. And I get junk everyday, usually unintentionally, from even the best designers. Work with me and I work with you. Simple. I help struggling designers all the time. If they listen and they improve, I keep helping. If not, they get charged next time.

There are printers out there just as clueless as designers though, and there will always be cheap design done by cheap printers for cheap clients. Especially in this economy.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

10-05-2004, 05:09 PM

The problem is there is not a governing body of experts to oversea everything. We need unbiased experts that genuinely care about this industry.

I want to point something out, just cause it hasn’t been done doesn’t mean it can’t be done. History has proven that man is only limited by his own mind. If we have the ability to create light from natural resources then governing standards for the Graphic Design community should be easy.

What we need it the “Why this is important” question answered for every aspect that is, well important. I already see the politics playing a roll in this thread alone, so to be effective we need experts that are honest and not as prideful as some of us here are demonstrating to be.

We need a humble party that knows when to say yes and no.

http://www.cbcamerica.com/images/webshots/benjobanner.jpg
Graphic Design Heroes! Call me Captain Type Caster. I’ve fought off “The Evil Cosmic Sans” for year but it seems “Dr. Extreme Untalent” keeps bringing him back. I must find a way to defeat this evil creature.

Capt. Creative bring me those comps…

Leny

10-05-2004, 06:01 PM

I agree with ya Printdriver, and meant no dis when I misworded 'printers have nothing to do with G.D.'. Printers are the output, the final process which without, designer would have nothing. And yes designers are also held accountable for their mistakes. I only intended to demonstrate an ideal. Our economy is not ideal and as any jr designer knows. That position is the first to be dissolved in a company when bad times turn for the worse. I appreciate the breaks that many printers and other industry professionals have afforded my peers and myself. That is why a designer should be more cognisant of the work they output. We are all in this together because we are all on the same food chain. But this is an issue for Graphic Designers. It seems that some G.D.s still do not understand their role, and therefore cannot clearly decided what they need to do next. I am a GDC member and believe in its ideals; the reason for its inception. Its a long road but it is a first step. There are many other world wide associations such as ICOGRADA which unifies many other associations. The network of designers is massive. North America is slower to acknowledge this resource of information. Licensing will come easily when we as an industry can firstly realize this resource.

PrintDriver

10-05-2004, 06:15 PM

Sorry Leny.
Flew off the handle a little but I've had AIGA members telling me, quite often, that printers don't matter and that their files are always perfect.
I think if you are going to get a handle on the low-ballers you will probably need our help, is all.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

Magnus

10-05-2004, 06:17 PM

Friend Control Z said:

"I don't get the feeling anyone is trying to dump on your idea. There are just a lot of very valid comments made on this thread both for and against the idea of licensing. Always remember, open discusion brings about great solutions."
Actually, therein lies the flaw with your thinking. If presented a clearly defined problem which requires a well thought out solution, creating reasons of how it can't happen is by no means taking steps to finding said solution. If deviations to the original problem are all that people are going to bring to the table, then yes, you get a giant, open discussion thatequatesto nothing useful because the main goal loses focus. People must start to learn to simplify things and work on what is given to them, not what they invent. Open discussions must be governed, less anarchy and all that good stuff reign. Even professional debates have rules and regulations.

"There are so many different ideas about what is right and wrong, and the older I get the more I realize that I may not know what cool is anymore. So what is good design?"

That wasn't the point at all. My point was to ensure a baseline of certification, through experience and education for graphic designers. Certainly it can be achieved without having to judge people's work. If they have the skills and backround, then the design work will come. It's also not fair to judge their work if a client specifies somethine we consider negative. It's also not fair to judge their work based on trends, or what we like and dislike. That's why I made no mention of their work. Again, people have brought their own ideas to the table on this, when I tried to make it clear that doing so would endanger the finding of an effective solution to the original problem I presented.

The issue of pirated software. - ANOTHER TOPIC DEVIATION
The issue of added charges for screwed up jobs in the print industry - ANOTHER TOPIC DEVIATION

These have absolutely nothing to do with licensing individuals.

Let's stay on the topic of certification shall we?

"However,if you did manage to get a licensing system up and running; one, have you ever heard of under-the-table?"

If clients want to go with an unlicensed person, the risk is placed squarely on their shoulders. No different if they get their car fixed by a friend who is not a licensed mechanic. I'm notgoing to explain all the dangers to it, but suffice to say that there is no recourse (short ofgoing after said friend) if something goes wrong.

"who would police such a system?"

If, say over a period of a decade or so, this system was implemented, then it would be done so by print shops, ad agencies, schools of design, freelance designers, etc. etc. In effect, the policing would be done by an in-place system of standards distributed and used througout this entire industry. You would not need to set up some form of "panel" to investigate violations. Think of it as something sort of like health care. All reputable medical institutions use it, and certain things are covered under it. The facilities are all licensed to do the work as well.

" and three, legal action against infractions is expensive."

Under the table mechanics only get sued for work IF they cause a life threatening accident or death. I don't see how any legal action would be required unless some design work was a life or death issue. What would keep people from infracting or not becoming licensed? It would go against the accepted (theoretical) standard that everyone in the GD industry is using for the licensing, and clients would know that using a licensed GD'er gives them a measure of security and trust. Two things that are a commodity in any capitalist/materialist society.

Friend Lenny said:

"Magnus, this intiative you speak of is exactly what the GDC and AIGA represent."

In theory, yes they do, same as the RGD here in Ontario, however, the main problem is that they are not representative of the masses of graphic designers. They appeal or rather, they regulate the top...what, 1-3% of graphic designers in Canada? That is not good enough.

"Understand that before we ( Graphic Design Professionals) are able to communicate the relevance and importance of our profession to the community, we need to practice as professionals."

Again, the idea of all graphic designers being professional is something that would be furthered along by licensing. The ones who can't, would be weeded out and the acceptance of our licensing, and then the education of the public about our licensing, would ensure that.

"It has been mentioned many times before, that any other profession ( Doctor , Lawyer, Accountant) would never undercut or reduce the value of their services. A designer ( worth their salt) wouldn't do that."

The profession of doctor, isn't being over-saturated by people learning how to be one in a few months, using barbarian methods of surgery and stone-age medical instruments. You can't be a doctor, unless you're willing to spend 10 years to become one. Graphic Designers (and I use the term loosely) are springing up virtually over night without having to put in the time and effort to be one. Licensing would help to solve that. These designers worth their salt, as you say, are having a helluva time making money because they are in fact, undercutting themselves in order to get jobs. That's not in dispute. People are bidding way too low on jobs and I agree the finished product is garbage, but the sad fact is in today's age people don't want to pay out what work is worth. Graphic Design is NOT free of this state of affairs.

"Learn the rules, adhere to them, and hold your standards high. Become a GDC or AIGA member and edcuate yourself."

For every 1 person thathas put their time in, or sticks to the rules, 2 are not. The number grows every day. There comes a time my friend where you can only do so much on your own. Banding together to form a unitied front and work on a solution is a lot better than one lone sniper taking on an entire division. Becoming a GDC or RGD will solve nothing, except for the 1-3% that I mentioned before. It will not help the rest of us.

Lenny, you need to think of this problem like a tactician would. Know your assets, and what they can and can't do. On the same note, know your limitations. Having said that, you must then think of how you can get to your objective by using said assets, and cover all your angles.

I also don't think you have much experience in pre-press. That much is evident by your paragraph that starts out as: "Print shops have nothing to do with Graphic Design..."

But that, is another topic, since it again deviates from the original question I submitted.

Having said all of that, a plan of attack would need to be outlined, in order to clarify who our intended targets would be, and what message to send out. For example, freelancers, print shops, colleges, unniversities, design studios, etc. etc. From there, we decide the logistics of communicating with each.

We would also need a set guide for administering the license. What types of qualifications would be enough to weed out the ones that would do the industry harm, but not over-manage people to the point where a 10,000 strong committee needs to be established, complete with their own air support and satelite imagery?

What kind of literature and bonuses/advantages could/would we offer to members? How could we convince people to become licensed?

What type of marketing strategy would we need to come up with in order to show/educate the public what it's about, and why it's in their best interest?

How many people do we need to operate such a thing? Would there be regional chapters/offices or one national institution?

The list goes on and on....but that is what needs to be brought up here, not squabbling about your personal gripes in graphic design.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

Post Edited (Magnus) : 10/5/2004 2:28:23 PM GMT

Eraser Nubbin

10-05-2004, 06:20 PM

Policing is based on laws, and laws are based on absolutes. Graphic design is filled with to many grey areas. There are not concrete rights and wrongs (speaking conceptually) when designing something. You may think my purple business card with embossed silver type set in budmo jiggle font is ugly, but who's to say that your opinion is better then mine? You may be more successful or experienced but when it boils down to it it is no more correct.

Match in the gas tank, boom boom.

Magnus

10-05-2004, 06:30 PM

Yes, I agree nubbin. That's why I'm against policing...rather, the license would be more preventative, than reactive.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

defjoe

10-05-2004, 07:20 PM

Magnus, I agree with you whole heartedly. but I think the main problem with this is if designers do get licensed, who regulates who hires them and is there a penalty for hiring a non-licensed designer? does the government regulate this? i'm a little confused on that end.

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'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

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Magnus

10-05-2004, 07:55 PM

Well, I'm not so sure about that part either. The licensing committee would I suppose be the ones to do it. However, depending on how detailed the application for the license is, you may not need a lot of people to do it.

The only penalty for hiring a non-designer would be not having the advantages of hiring a designer. So we'd have to figure something out aside from the benefits of good design work, to have as an added incentive I guess.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

morea

10-05-2004, 08:10 PM

Magnus said...
My point was to ensure a baseline of certification, through experience and education for graphic designers. Certainly it can be achieved without having to judge people's work

I’m totally with you. This keeps certification objective, which is absolutely essential.

Magnus said...
The profession of doctor, isn't being over-saturated by people learning how to be one in a few months, using barbarian methods of surgery and stone-age medical instruments.…. These designers worth their salt, as you say, are having a helluva time making money because they are in fact, undercutting themselves in order to get jobs. That's not in dispute. People are bidding way too low on jobs and I agree the finished product is garbage, but the sad fact is in today's age people don't want to pay out what work is worth.

Sad but true… too many people think that “graphic design” is an unskilled profession and look at it as a “get rich quick” scheme. Just push some buttons, drop in some clip art, and *bam* - instant money. And after seeing the prices that these folks offer, no one wants to pay a “real” designer for the hard work they do. (In the immortal words of one of my prospective clients… “<incredulous> HOW much for a logo? Never mind! I’ll just get my son to do it.”)

Magnus said...
Having said all of that, a plan of attack would need to be outlined, in order to clarify who our intended targets would be, and what message to send out.

Organizations like the DMIA (http://www.dmia.org/) could pass the information on to their members.

Magnus said...
What types of qualifications would be enough to weed out the ones that would do the industry harm, but not over-manage people

Definitely one I’m going to have to put some thought into. This is a tough one to define.

Magnus said...
What kind of literature and bonuses/advantages could/would we offer to members? How could we convince people to become licensed?

Being a member would be an advantage in itself. Low membership fees (if any) would encourage me, and possibly discounts through print shops for submitting print-ready files?

I’m going to think about this today. I’ll let you know what I come up with. /emoticons/thumbsup.gif

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.

Leny

10-05-2004, 08:19 PM

Magnus, your intentions for this forum are good. If you look around ( the world), you will find a huge support system that can be infuential to your concerns. Ontario's licensing is based on a different criteria than any other province in Canada. Their exams concentrate only on their intrests, and have been the only reason why a full accreditation of Graphic designers is not inplace yet in Canada ( set aside minor politics). You speak of only 1-3% of the community of designers that influence these groups. More and more designers are dismissing these groups as elitest or snobs. These groups can do exactly what you are questioning, the infrastucture is already in place, resources are available, they only lack the support. You do not have to re-invent the wheel. Can you not see that they strive for the same equality in our profession? Your opionion does make a difference and is incredibly valuable to these groups. Educate yourself.

The people you speak of ( those with only months of training) who are saturating our market would not be considered designers. They would never pass any type of accreditation. They are of no concern. They go from job to job and invest no time into the elevation of our profession. They are considered technicians; able to use a program and at the most have a rudimentary understanding of visual communication. Again, no designer worth their salt would even bother with a client that cannot appreciate the services. Its your choice, never sacrifice your design integrity for a client that cannot see it's merit. THAT is where it begins. When you and your peers can stand together and force these decision to be made. Licensing first, if possible, would only alienate those that do not have that understanding of our industry. You cannot use licensing as a crutch for an ecomony that does not know anybetter. Many of the other proffesions ( Doctors, Architects...) went through the same problems until the public understood their relavance. Their licensing was a product of education and embracing of their importance by the public.

I understand where you are coming from, I was there once ( as a student). Maybe I was just fortunate to have good people around me. But it looks to me now, that you're the one who is griping. Griping about a discussion running its course. A discussion YOU created. Your emphasis on tactics to solving this problem is interesting. But as a designer, you should be more objective. Our peers in this forum provide you with the lateral thinking, angles you speak of. Directly related or not, they are all relevent. Diseminate the discussion and form a new question. A more informed question. In our profession, the answer only comes when we ask the right question. Has your question evolved? Educate yourself.

Good luck Magnus.

Leny

10-05-2004, 09:09 PM

It's all good Printdriver. I hear ya. Some members can be difficult, but as we all know. The printshop lays down the law. Theres no disputing their expertise. I grew up in a print shop and I had only saved a dime for every ' ...the file is perfect, what do you mean the fonts are missing? Don't you have them?'.

peace

Magnus

10-05-2004, 09:37 PM

Hey Leny,

I tried point out the fact that I'm quite aware of the RGD and GDC and their distinctive roles in the design industry. Like I said, a good friend of mine, Joe Minicucci is one of the founding members of the RGD in Ontario. However, they are not sufficient in this task.

I'm guessing from your last post though, that you're a bit bitter about the way in which I tried to keep this discussion focused on my question. In fact, you even went as far as to try demonstrate the issue that because I met with opposition in this thread, that I am the one not able to objectively view a problem from different angles.

My advice to you is to stick around a bit more before you state an opinion about me and to ditch your patronizing tone after I tried to steer things back to course. You're upset because you felt I made a personal attack against you. Maybe it was. But either way your posts have had absolutley no value here, and you were not comfortable with having someone point that out.

So stay off this thread.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

Big Perm-dizzle

10-05-2004, 10:02 PM

what if a project got messed up our clients could file malpractice suits against us???

however we could imprison anyone who isnt licensed and practices GD without the proper training

www.hirethisdesigner.com (http://www.hirethisdesigner.com) - portfolio
www.conceptprint.com (http://www.conceptprint.com) - the company I work for

Leny

10-05-2004, 10:37 PM

Your attitude is dissappointing, and unfortunate. I hope you find your answers, good luck in your travels.

peace

Magnus

10-05-2004, 10:50 PM

"Your attitude is dissappointing, and unfortunate. I hope you find your answers, good luck in your travels.

peace"

Deal with it. And don't aim your yoda-type ramblings in my direction boyo. I said not to post any of your useless crap here and I meant it.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

defjoe

10-05-2004, 11:26 PM

BP...technically they can do that now if they wanted. but they wouldn't get much.

I hear ya Magnus, for example being that we just had 10,000 hurricanes down here there is a big push to watch out for non licnesed roofers, etc. but you can hire anyone to do it. I guess if the f up you have no legal recourse? I would find that hard to beleive as long as you have a bill of sale (which you would be stupid to not) and a decent lawyer.

Maybe it should be somthing like being a doctor or cop, you have to have a certificate in order to get hired, it's illegal not to hire someone without. I would be all for that but I doubt anyone would put any really money behind that campaign.

'I will become the most powerful Jedi ever!'
'I'm the damn designer, bitches!'

Check out my indie comic book!
www.assassinsguild.net/ (http://www.assassinsguild.net/)

Magnus

10-05-2004, 11:37 PM

Yeah, finances would also be a major issue. I can't imagine what it would cost...though it would be interesting to see it tested on a much smaller scale, like a city or something.

"It's not cheating if you win."

- A VERY wise person.

Eraser Nubbin

10-06-2004, 01:25 AM

Another issue to be raised, do you break down the licensing into several sub groups? Using your doctor example, I wouldn't go to a pediatrist to get my contact lense prescription, but if I suggested that my boss hire a seperate individual to do his website, and another for product photos and that I was only going to be handling packaging he'd laugh in my face.
Would this be a broad certificate or would it be more of a modular aproach where you got a Boy Scout badge for each area of training that you were proficient in.

Match in the gas tank, boom boom.

PrintDriver

10-06-2004, 06:27 AM

Mag, you need to chill a little.
Leni may be a noob but he seems to have been round the block a little.
His first post came off wrong even to me but if you want to discuss this topic, I don't see it going in a straight line anyway. Yes, it's a serious issue and really you and I and Kool and Key and several others in print always get the shitty end of the stick sometimes. But take all discussion as it comes. Who knows what'll come from it.

I been waffling myself on this one a bit. Frankly, I'm all for waiting til the dust settles. I'm the guy selling provisions to the gold miners. I get stuff printed one way or another and designers pay me to do it. They go out and dig the measly bits of gold out of the ground then pay it to me for print.
Guess that makes me an *******.

Short of my lamenting you guys should be licensed, I've noticed the creative mind tends to shy away from the chains of unions and corporations. I will now step out of the thread cuz I can't seem to come up with an acceptible or viable means of herding and culling. Therefore you shall starve. And I guess that makes me an ******* too.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

uncle carbunkle

10-07-2004, 08:15 AM

PrintDriver said...
...I can't seem to come up with an acceptible or viable means of herding and culling. Therefore you shall starve. And I guess that makes me an ******* too.

herding and culling...damn pd, that just makes you hot. like, tamale hot. you sure do know how to sweet-talk a gal...got any more dirty verbage? ooo! wanna go dance 'round a heidelberg by the pale moonlight?

mmmm....staaaarving....

:: Durable and doable in a swimsuit, yet not designed for surfing, cliff diving, extreme groping and other high-impact activities. ::

Keyare

10-07-2004, 09:02 AM

If it's a DI I'm dancing naked.

Hey Magnus, Leny's got a point. A couple of them. Even though his dissertation comes off as patronizing, it really isn't. Please don't be so quick to jump down his throat, he's probably been writing copy for the last 8 hours straight. ;)

Hey Leny write the copy for my website!!

Corprolite happened.

dark_witch

10-11-2004, 09:23 AM

Myself, along with the 20 other graphic students that are in my classes, have discussed a need for just this sorta 'organization' of designers. Our instructors have talked about the flooded market and how we will be competing against (sometimes) hacks and no-talents who've had a few design classes and some pirated software. We've all agree'd to some extent that a membership and testing/certification would definately be the way to go. I hope it happens.

Kill a man, you're an assassin.
Kill an army, you're a conqueror.
Kill em all, you're a god.

http://kildare.ie/defenceforces/ORG/org_images/Unit_Sniper_small.JPG

Eraser Nubbin

10-12-2004, 07:53 PM

I don't see how you can call these 'hacks and no-talents' competition in the first place. I think it reflects poorly on us all that we would be threatened by these individuals. To me it sounds like an excuse to cover our butts and inflate rates. I had this very same discussion with a friend who is a lawyer and she is in the same situation. She is bitter because she went to school for seven years and she is ticked because there are para-legals out there charging a fraction of what she reaps. I know this is a cliche but people are going to get what they pay for, and these unskilled individuals out there are only serving to illustrate how important actual designers are by creating crap work.

Match in the gas tank, boom boom.

10-13-2004, 04:57 AM

AMEN Eraser!!! I could have not said it better myself.

I do some freelance work for a print broker. Occasionaly I have to check out and forward some files on to the printers from clients with thier own designers. Recently I got some files that made me cringe. It was a 2 color brochure (8.5x11 2 sided) created in PageMaker 7.o. No fonts were given, and my 2 color job color separated into 7 plates. CMYK, A plate called Balck, and a PMS that separated into both the coated version and the uncoated version. This guy charged $1200 for this piece of trash that any 1st year designer could have created. I ended taking a bunch of his work because I work cheaper and my designs are better.Doctors and laywers have been mentioned as models for 'licensing' but those professions hold someone else life in thier hands. Graphic designers do not. Why are you afraid of a little competition? If you are having a hard time finding work maybe its time to reduce your rates, we are still in a recession and money is a lot tighter. Just because someone works for less does not mean they are 'hacks & no-talents'. If the work is that bad do really think these hacks are going to get repeat business?

Let your work speak for itself.

CHRISGEE

04-12-2005, 12:05 AM

I'm sorry to be coming to this thread so late and if folks have talked it to death, please just ignore me. /DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/wink.gif

I can honestly see how folks feel on both sides of this issue. I used to be as vociferously against licensing/certification/accreditation as anyone. Now I feel strongly that it's something that our industry should strongly consider.

It's not simply an issue of desingers being afraid of competition. Certification efforts in Canada or Denmark have not stopped uncertified designers in those countries from being able to compete with or undercut certified designers, nor would it have that effect here. Just the same as unions have not stopped individuals from hiring non-union handymen from working on their house.

People get family members, rather than accountants, to file their taxes. They get non-mechanics to fix their cars. They decorate their own houses rather than hire interior designers and even create/file their own legal documents rather than hire a lawyer.

Having said that, if I don't feel comfortable trusting a handyman to work on my house. If I don't trust my taxes in the hands of my brother-in-law. If I don't think my sister would do a particularly good job decorating my house. If I want a professional to handle my legal documents. If I want the option of hiring someone who has at least taken the time and effort to show and meet a minimum level of competency in their chosen field, I can do so...... excpet in Graphic Design.

I see the anecdote about the designer who sent the poorly pre-pressed CMYK job as a reason FOR certification, not against it.

Few can argue that our industry currently occupies a far lower position in the business and corporate world than it did in the 60's or even 70's. How do we reclaim our seat at the management table, which now seems to be occupied by folks who didn't exist back then.... IT managers?

At this moment in the United States, graphic design is the only of the five core design disciplines (graphic design, interior design, architecture, industrial design, engineering) that does not have some form of certification or registration. On the other hand, certification efforts have already been started in countries like Canada, Denmark, South Africa and Australia.

It's not an issue of someone's life being at stake, as with doctors. Whose life is at stake in the case of interior design? Sure, I might enjoy my home better if it's more smartly decorated but I don't think it will lengthen or shorten my lifespan. And while I love my iPod, I don't think that it's industrial design has an impact on my life.

There are many different models for GD certification being employed in many different countries around the world. Which one is the best for the U.S.? How do we implement it? How is it maintained? All questions that I don't think anyone has the answers to. But you can't get answers until we at least acknowledge that certain questions need to be asked. Now's the time to at least start asking those questions.

Magnus

04-12-2005, 12:22 AM

Leny? Hello? Leny...are you there?

Nope, guess not.

Anyway, good points ChrisGee. I think that licensing should almost be a mandatory part of school...like a co-op where after a certain amount of hours are obtained (similar to a carpenter or electrician), then the designer is then certified. After having gone back to my college and spoken with the 2nd years there, it's needed!!! BIG TIME!!! My old teacher was even telling me how scary it was. The calibre of computer skills (even basic ones) is sorely lacking...now these people are being released into the industry...<shudders>.

It would be a lot easier on paper to reach people if the schools were targeted for this type of program...it would certainly weed out a lot of would-be designers. If it was pitched right and made affordable, it could be implemented.

Other programs could be instituted to reach people already in the field...the possibilities are endless, but I don't think anyone here has the time or money to start it...well, at least I don't!

But at least we're discussing it!

"Sometimes I do what I want...most of the time, I do what I have to." (Cicero, from "Gladiator")

"There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path." (Morpheus, from"The Matrix")

"It's not cheating if you win...do what you have to do, but don't sacrifice your own honour in the process." (Taken from my iaido instructor, and modified by me)

"I am serving my time in hell on earth...at the job I am currently employed at." (Magnus, about his job)

CHRISGEE

04-12-2005, 12:44 AM

Thanks Magnus.

A writer named Peter Giffen wrote a great 2-part series called 'The Credibility Gap' which was published in 'Applied Arts Magazine' and re-published on the Icograda website.

www.icograda.org/web/feature-past-single.shtml?pfl=feature-single-2.param&op2.rf1=207 (http://www.icograda.org/web/feature-past-single.shtml?pfl=feature-single-2.param&op2.rf1=207)

www.icograda.org/web/feature-past-single.shtml?pfl=feature-single-2.param&op2.rf1=208 (http://www.icograda.org/web/feature-past-single.shtml?pfl=feature-single-2.param&op2.rf1=208)

Also on the Icograda website, Jacques Lange wrote an excellent article that breaks down the various different models for certification/licensing/accreditation.

www.icograda.org/web/feature-past-single.shtml?pfl=feature-single-2.param&op2.rf1=31 (http://www.icograda.org/web/feature-past-single.shtml?pfl=feature-single-2.param&op2.rf1=31)

Jacques Lange said...
Model A
Informal bodies with few or no membership access criteria. These groupings arrange ad hoc skills development programmes to further the knowledge of their members without controlling their performance.

Model B
Formal societies and associations with broad membership consisting of diverse levels of competence and limited access criteria. These organisations arrange regular skills development programmes to further the knowledge of their members and execute limited control over performance.

Model C
Formal societies, associations and institutes with exclusive membership granted by means of strict access criteria. These organisations classify their membership according to competence levels identified through various evaluation systems (academic qualification, portfolio assessment, interviews, experience, referrals). Membership categories range from accredited/certified members (highest) to licentiate, affiliate and student members (lowest). They present skills development programmes on a continual basis to further the knowledge of members and execute control over performance, ethics and conduct.

Model D
Formal associations and institutes with exclusive membership granted by means of strict access criteria. Theoretical testing is used to evaluate membership competence levels. They provide compulsory skills development programmes to further the knowledge of members and execute strict control over performance, ethics and conduct. In some cases these organisations are protected by national legislation.

I think there is plenty to consider and be discussed. Clearly, there is room within the existing models out there -- or perhapas a hybrid of the four -- where we can achieve a model here in the U.S. that is both fair, effective and sends our industry onto the right path.

Our industry is sick right now. We should be arguing about WHICH medicine we need but not the overall effectiveness of medicine in general.

Last year, before I got burnt out and unbelievably swamped with work, I promised to explore this topic through a series of articles and interviews on the Creative Latitude website.

I'm back and refreshed and plan to pickup where I left off. I'll be discussing this topic in the pages of CL as well as here and even in my blog, thePreparedMind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

I really think it's time we talk about certain things in our industry. We can't afford sacred cows or pink elephants that no one acknowledges in the room. Not any more. Maybe we never could...

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

BOSCOW

04-12-2005, 07:57 PM

'Our careers are in effect, spiraling downwards. Whether you are feeling it now, or later, it is inevitable.'

I dont agree with that at all, if I thought that there is no reason why I would stay in the business, why stay with something if it is sprialing downwards.

The union idea could probably get go somewhere if you have enough people in your area to try and get one started, you wont be able to join electrical, carpenters, union etc. like they can, would have to start from the bottom.
Even if it is started it is inevitable that you will still have people that think they can design and you will always have poeple that will pay for the service to people who think they can design. Just like you have people fixing their own cars, building their own decks, additions, wiring their own electricity, doing their own plumbing, etc.

'No Lois I am not drunk, I am exhausted because I have been up all night drinking.'

CHRISGEE

04-12-2005, 08:50 PM

BOSCOW said...
I dont agree with that at all, if I thought that there is no reason why I would stay in the business, why stay with something if it is sprialing downwards.

Hey Boscow,

I don't know that 'spiraling downwards' is accurate or not. In the U.S., no one has done a comparative study of our industry and how it's doing. Are we in fact spiraling downwards? Who can say? Are we surging upwards? Can't say that either.

I posted an entry onto my blog today in which I included such a study that was done on the state of the GD Industry in England. www.thepreparedmind.com/pm/index.php/2005/04/12/hearing-no-evil/ (http://www.thepreparedmind.com/pm/index.php/2005/04/12/hearing-no-evil/)

A quick look at those numbers may indeed give one the impression that the industry, if not spiraling downward, is certainly sick and in need of being treated.

BOSCOW said...
The union idea could probably get go somewhere if you have enough people in your area to try and get one started, you wont be able to join electrical, carpenters, union etc. like they can, would have to start from the bottom.

I'll have to go back and re-read the posts in this thread and see if I can find where someone proposed the idea of a 'union'. I didn't see that. This thread is about the possibility of Certification/Licensing/Accreditation which is not the same as being a union. Maybe I'm wrong but I wouldn't consider the American Society of Interior Designers, American Institute of Architects or Registered Graphic Designers of Ontario to be unions.

No more than I consider the American Bar Association to be a union. Or the American Medical Assocation.

This is where we need to be careful with words and their meaning. I'm pretty sure that -- right or wrong -- due to past associations with the Mob, corruption and decreases in worker productivity, most graphic designers would state that they would not want to be associated with a union. On the other hand, I'm sure few designers would state that they would not want to be associated with an organization comparable to those like the ASID, AIA or RGD/ON.

Fewer still could argue that the efforts of those organizations in terms of working with universities, mentoring young professionals, establishing industry standards and lobbying on behalf of the good of the industry would not be beneficial to the GD Industry in the U.S.

BOSCOW said...
Even if it is started it is inevitable that you will still have people that think they can design and you will always have poeple that will pay for the service to people who think they can design. Just like you have people fixing their own cars, building their own decks, additions, wiring their own electricity, doing their own plumbing, etc.

Well again, I have not seen it written in this thread, or anywhere else for that matter, that the goal of Certification would be to bar or hinder clients from hiring anyone they want. We live in free societies and individuals are free to do what they want.

However, I'm not so sure that a great many clients wouldn't find it helpful and comforting to know that our industry has minimum professional standards and that there is a body or organization they can turn to to find out what those standards are and which designers have met them.

Go to the AIA site or the ASID site and they state, in very clear terms, what the various types of architects or designers do, which types you should hire for which projects and what their skillsets should be.

Tell me, where should a corporate manager, ad agency exec or small business owner go if they wish to find out what kind of graphic designer they need? Where should they find out what skills that graphic designer should have? Should they hire a web designer for their print work? A print designer for their e-commerce site? What should they ask this graphic designer in the interview?

I'm sure all of us has seen this but if you look through job ads for Graphic Designers, it's almost like looking through ads for software programmers. One would likely see something like:

'Must know Quark, Illustrator, Photoshop, InDesign, Acrobat and be proficient on both Mac/PC. Some Dreamweaver and Flash a plus.'

What about DESIGN??? What about typography? What about compositional skills? What about training? What about color theory? The sad part is that you're just as likely to see an ad like that being advertised by a Graphic Design firm or Agency than anywhere else!

We have to, at some point, establish as an industry what the core set of skills/knowledge is for someone to call themselves a professional graphic designer.

That way, the outside world can better separate the wheat from the chaff.
That way, all graphic design students will know what skills they need to obtain or improve.
That way, those who don't have the necessary skills will have a goal for which to aim.

But as long as we continue to harbor the notion that anyone who ever earned a buck and called themselves a graphic designer is in fact a professional graphic designer, we will continue to be confused and thus our clients will be confused.

'I installed Photoshop, therefore I design'? We have to move away from that.

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

BOSCOW

04-12-2005, 09:00 PM

some one mentioned that it would be kind of a union thing on the first page.
the other part was a theory of what can still happen even after you have a certification process or something

or the licensning thing would be just like a cop or whatever so when your done with college you have to pay to take a test, if you fail you couldnt design, and then wait a certain period of time to take it again and pay the fee again. It is an idea but there is so much to bring into effect of it, cant even decide where I would stand on it yet.

college degree

'No Lois I am not drunk, I am exhausted because I have been up all night drinking.'

CHRISGEE

04-12-2005, 09:44 PM

BOSCOW said...
some one mentioned that it would be kind of a union thing on the first page.
the other part was a theory of what can still happen even after you have a certification process or something

Well I don't think a professional organization and worker's union arise from the same needs or stated goals. A union would not be what's needed in our industry but a professional certification body -- once a taboo -- is certainly worthy of discussion.

What happens after you have the certification process is what needs to be discussed. There are models out there in other countries and industries. We could either employ an existing model or modify a bunch of them to make a new one. First we have to examine the need for certification that I think a growing number of people are starting to acknowledge is there.

BOSCOW said...
or the licensning thing would be just like a cop or whatever so when your done with college you have to pay to take a test, if you fail you couldnt design, and then wait a certain period of time to take it again and pay the fee again. It is an idea but there is so much to bring into effect of it, cant even decide where I would stand on it yet.

Well I don't know that anyone has seriously proposed such a certification model. To be sure, the U.S. department of labor would never approve it because it would be anti-competitive.

What we're talking about is not excluding or precluding individuals from designing. What we're talking about is defining what a 'professional graphic designer' is or should be. What they they know? How much is the minimum of training they should have? What is their core competency?

Even those of us who have been design professionals for many years would struggle to answer those basic questions and that is WRONG!!!!

If WE don't know how to define ourselves, how do we define ourselves to others? If WE can't define ourselves, can we stop others from defining us?

I'm not sure that the cop analogy is the way I'd see the process.

The way I'd see the process is that a certification body would work closely with accreditation bodies, as the AIGA currently is doing http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm?ContentID=148, to ensure that design schools/programs have a consistent curriculum that is in step with the needs of the business world. When I was in college in the late 80's, my GD instructors REFUSED to allow any computers into our studios despite the fact that the need for designers with computer skills was clear in the marketplace. That's just WRONG!

I don't think a certification body should stop with schools, though. This body should establish and identify core standards of competency and professional practice. It should also test core knowledge and competency. This is a controversial concept for some, who think that design is far too subjective to accurately test. To that I respond that a core level of competency and objective testing is done to get into design schools, design firms, agencies and corporations every day. So let's not pretend that there isn't some manner of standards being evaluated. It just varies wildly on a case-by-case basis.

Finally, folks ought not to see such a potential process as exclusionary. I'll be honest and tell you that I'd have to study in order to pass the exam that is given to those seeking to become Registered Graphic Designers in Ontario: www.rgdexamboard.com/exam_handbook.pdf (http://www.rgdexamboard.com/exam_handbook.pdf).

I'll also say that I think it contains a lot of info that ALL of us should know! Would it hurt us to improve our business knowledge? Would it hurt us to improve our Studio Management skills? Would it hurt us to learn more about contracts? Would it hurt us to brush up on the concepts of design and design history that we learned eons ago in school? Would it hurt practicing designers who never went to design school to learn some of those things for the first time?

The answers to all of those questions is 'no'. It wouldn't hurt, not even one bit.

Change is tough. It's painful for most and it seems to be especially painful for Graphic Designers. One need only look at how our industry handled the early days of desktop publishing and the Internet for proof of that. But change is a constant and you have to make change your ally, not your friend.

Thanks for discussing this with me. Let's definitely discuss this some more. I think it's healthy!

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

Mojovonious

04-17-2005, 08:02 PM

wow,

I must say this is all good to hear. My inital ideas have pretty much been confrimed, the market is just too over saturated. Thank god I'll be taking a Networking Course in the fall.

morea

04-18-2005, 01:42 AM

I'll tell you what... I understand the frustration with everybody-who-owns-software-that-can import-graphics calling themselves 'Graphic designers'... but some of the very best designers I know do not have college degrees.

I don't lump myself in with the real pros as yet; I only have a few years of practical design experience, in addition to several years of prepress and printing experience.

But I would find it pretty darned offensive to think that you need a degree for certification. I know enough people with degrees who don't know the first thing about the real world, and enough people without degrees that I look up to for their knowledge.

'They say time is the fire in which we burn.'
- Dr. Tolian Soran

CHRISGEE

04-18-2005, 02:20 AM

morea said...
I'll tell you what... I understand the frustration with everybody-who-owns-software-that-can import-graphics calling themselves 'Graphic designers'... but some of the very best designers I know do not have college degrees.

I don't lump myself in with the real pros as yet; I only have a few years of practical design experience, in addition to several years of prepress and printing experience.

But I would find it pretty darned offensive to think that you need a degree for certification. I know enough people with degrees who don't know the first thing about the real world, and enough people without degrees that I look up to for their knowledge.

You wouldn't have to have a degree in order to be certified. Here's how it works under the Canadian RGD model:

-A total of seven years of education and professional practice (a minimum of three years of postsecondary graphic design education, with a completed diploma/degree, and a minimum of three years of professional practice), or

- Seven years of relevant professional experience prior to the year 2000 and continuous professional engagement in the field from the year 2000 to the present.

So it's not a matter of degree or no degree. If they have 7 years experience, pass the exam and the portfolio review, they're in. So the many talented folks who don't have formal training but are darn good designers would still be able to be certified.

The ones without would know what areas -- whether knowledge, experience or quality of work -- they need to improve in.

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

morea

04-18-2005, 03:13 AM

What I'm seeing on the website (www.rgdexamboard.com/ (http://www.rgdexamboard.com/)) says:

'You must have graduated from a 3- or 4-year graphic design program and you must have worked as a graphic designer for a minimum of 3 years so that you can demonstrate 7 years of relevant education and experience combined. (Or you must have at least 7 years of practical work experience prior to the year 2000 and have worked continuously in the field since then to be eligible under the new Seniority Clause.)'

so if the 7 years experience don't fall before the year 2000, it doesn't count?

REALLY not trying to be argumentative here... just want to understand the implications as they would apply to people like me.

'They say time is the fire in which we burn.'
- Dr. Tolian Soran

CHRISGEE

04-18-2005, 06:23 AM

morea said...
so if the 7 years experience don't fall before the year 2000, it doesn't count?

REALLY not trying to be argumentative here... just want to understand the implications as they would apply to people like me.

It's no problem. I really want to help to break down whatever myths and misunderstandings may stand in the way of certification so that people can evaluate it on its merits. So ask away!

As for the 7 years prior to 2000, it looks like that is part of their conditions that if you don't have the 7 years prior to 2000, you'd have to go back to school to get certified. So basically designers without a formal education but who have been working and producing great work for many years would be 'grandfathered'.

What are the implications for those without a formal education and don't have the 7 years prior to 2000? Likely nothing. They won't be able to be an RGD under the Canadian model. That's not to say they wouldn't be able to work and do design, just as they do today. They will.

Really I think this is more of something that lays the foundation and standards to benefit our industry in the future, rather than simply the present day.

If you study the RGD program closely, what they are doing is working with schools to make sure the curricula are consistent and change to meet the needs of the marketplace.

What they are doing is working to link students and working designers in order to forge mentorship relationships and a smoother entry of design students into the profession.

Finally what they are doing is trying to establish a minimum level of standards, which our industry sorely needs.

There will always be folks who are talented and make great designers even though they don't have the benefit of a formal education. Just like there are actors, singers and writers who rise in their craft even though they didn't study formally. There are people who perform legal services that aren't lawyers and folks who are instrumental to designing buildings who aren't architects (drafters).

But since logically everyone won't be a prodigy, the best way to ensure that a talented individual can make the transformation into a competent professional is with a blend of accredited schooling, a structured entry into the profession and an apparatus that allows for the continuation of education and enrichment.

I don't see it as exclusionary. To be sure, a person who really WANTS to be certified will know what areas they need to fulfill and how to do so. If not, then not. They'll be a graphic designer but not a Registered Graphic Designer. There will always be work for unregistered graphic designers. This is just a way of creating some standards and definition for the industry and I think ultimately all will benefit.

I hope my long-winded response helped clear up any questions you had.

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

morea

04-18-2005, 04:05 PM

I appreciate your well-articulated response, Chris, and understand the benefits of registering professionals within an organization.

BUT... (isn't there always a but?)

Why in the world would one need to "grandfather" SOME designers and then change the requirements for the rest of us in the field?

Why is it that my 5 years of experience beginning in 1999 would hold less "value" than someone's experience before the year 2000? Playing devil's advocate a bit here, but I am up to date with the technology, trying to remain on the cutting edge of the industry as well as anyone can. If I have the 7 years professional experience but it was NOT before the year 2000, what difference does that make?

I am tied up for 50 hours a week with my "day job" as director of marketing for a large appliance distributor. Outside of my day job I also take on freelance design projects for a growing client base. I keep up to date with industry news and read everything I can get my hands on - on my own, when I can. I certainly do not have the time to go back to school and finish out a 4 year degree - and quite frankly don't really think that it is necessary. Many of the people graduating from those degree programs don't understand how to practically apply that knowledge.

If this is the case, it seems to me that the way one would become a "registered" designer is to buy one's way into the club. Once you have paid for your degree, then you would be given the opportunity to apply for membership.

Where does that leave folks like me, who have put in the time and effort to learn by initiative and hard work? Well, unregistered. And while there will certainly always be work for "unregistered" designers, I don't care to be lumped in by my peers with the $14.95 logo sites and the kids with their pirated software slapping a few Photoshop filters on a photo and calling it "design".

I wouldn't go to an unlicensed doctor, auto mechanic or plumber. Why would a legitimate business want to go to an unlicensed designer? And if I'm not part of the solution, doesn't that make people like me part of the problem?

'They say time is the fire in which we burn.'
- Dr. Tolian Soran

Broacher

04-18-2005, 04:58 PM

>>If I have the 7 years professional experience but it was NOT before the year 2000, what difference does that make?<<

It depends... how would you do on some of these sample questions from the RGD exam?

Sample Questions from their downloadable exam handbook:

Design History

Which designer edited and designed the book,
The Isms of Art 1914–1924?

a. Theo van Doesburg
b. Kasimir Malevich
b. El Lissitsky
c. Laszlo Moholy-Nagy

Correct answer is: c.

Which magazine designer was responsible for the
influential look of Harper’s Bazaar from 1934-1958

a. Lester Beall
b. Alexy Brodovitch
c. J. Müller-Brockmann
d. Herbert Matter

Correct answer is: b.

Design Research

The Fahrenheit scale is an example of what type of
scale?

a. Ratio
b. Ordinal
c. Nominal
d. Interval
Correct answer is: d.

An open-ended question typically means that:

a. the respondent is unable to answer the question
b. the respondent is free to answer the question in
any way she chooses
c. the respondent is provided with a check-list of
options
d. the respondent writes a predetermined
response to the question

Correct answer is: b.

Design Principles

In Gestalt theory, sharpening is defined as:

a. a heightening of grouping tendencies
b. an increase or exaggeration
c. greater alignment of elements
d. improvement of the edge definition of shapes
Correct answer is: b.

Printing

Colour management systems rely on the deviceindependent
nature of which colour model?

a. RGB
b. CMYK
c. CIE LAB
d. Pantone®
Correct answer is: c.

Stochastic printing consists of:

a. a random pattern of dots varied by frequency
b. a regular pattern of dots varied by frequency
c. a random pattern of dots varied by amplitude
d. a regular pattern of dots varied by amplitude

Correct answer is: a.

Technology

3 Dimensional software creates objects that are:

a. in raster format
b. in RAW format
c. in vector format
d. in CMYK format
Correct answer is: c.

open Type refers to:

a. typefaces that are open faced
b. script faces based on handwriting ligatures
c. type designed for multiple platforms
d. type that is converted to outlines in Illustrator
Correct answer is: c.

===============

(Maybe if I had a RGD titlement, I wouldn't keep losing work to the guys who got those first two questions right.)

morea

04-18-2005, 05:23 PM

No offense meant to those of you who had to suffer through art history courses, but in all honesty, what does question #1 have to do with being a graphic designer? How many of my clients are likely to ask me 'Which designer edited and designed the book, The Isms of Art 1914–1924?' Seriously.

I majored in business and music in college, and had to suffer through music history. Again, while it may come in handy for Trivial Pursuit, or if I ever decide to go on 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire', the information I learned in that class has no practical application in the career path I was taking.

I understand that a knowledge of design principles is essential, but honestly, shouldn't we be more concerned with how to properly output a file for printing than which designer wrote what book nearly 100 years ago?

'They say time is the fire in which we burn.'
- Dr. Tolian Soran

D-Zine

04-18-2005, 05:47 PM

I have a 4 year college degree from an Art & Design college and I too would flunk that test easily!!
I took art history every quarter of all 4 years but I would still fail that test... /DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/dry.gif

'No more yanky my wanky! The donga need food!!' - heh

CHRISGEE

04-18-2005, 06:32 PM

I think the idea behind 'grandfathering' in the beginning is that, at some point, the requirements are going to tighten up. I think the opinion is that while there are many wonderful graphic designers who don't have a formal education, most of the best and most talented graphic designers are those who received a formal design education and training at accredited design schools.

That's not an insult or slight to those who have not received formal educations and in other forums, designers who don't have a formal education concede that it's much, much harder to become a very good designer by teaching yourself than it is if you have made it through a good program.

So the eventual goal of the RGD is that, in order to be a Registered Graphic Designer, you have to have a degree as part of your requirements. This is actually the way it is in MOST professional industries, by the way. The ASID (American Society of Interior Designers), AIA (American Institute of Architects) and IDSA (Interior Design Society of America) are all design professions with similar requirements.

That won't be the ONLY criteria. Folks with design degrees won't simply be able to rest on their laurels. The RGD program, and other good ones in other markets, feature continuing education requirements, mentorship for design school students, ethical guidelines, etc. A lazy designer who earned a BFA 12 years ago but can't be bothered to keep up their pre-press/print production knowledge or their web production knowledge if they do work on the web, would not be certified as well.

morea said...
If this is the case, it seems to me that the way one would become a 'registered' designer is to buy one's way into the club. Once you have paid for your degree, then you would be given the opportunity to apply for membership.

Well I don't quite see it that way. College degrees are required for most positions for professionals. Many older CEOs in America don't have college degrees, yet today one would find it very difficult to even obtain a junior management position without a degree. Even police officers in many municipalities are required now to have some college.

So I don't see it as an issue of 'buying your way in.' Getting a good design education in a good design school and learning from prominent design educators and thinkers is hardly the equivalent to buying your way into something. It's an extremely worthwhile endeavor and most professions, unlike ours, have figured this out a long time ago.

Somebody said...
Where does that leave folks like me, who have put in the time and effort to learn by initiative and hard work? Well, unregistered. And while there will certainly always be work for 'unregistered' designers, I don't care to be lumped in by my peers with the $14.95 logo sites and the kids with their pirated software slapping a few Photoshop filters on a photo and calling it 'design'.

It's important not to see this as an 'all-or-nothing' proposition. There are unlicensed deisgners who work in and out of architecture firms with architects. There are very brilliant parallegals who work in and outside of law firms and are vital to the industry. There are great financial minds who are not CPAs but do many people's taxes and bookkeeping.

Registered Graphic Designers won't spell the death of unregistered Graphic Designers any more than television spelled the death of radio or the Internet spelled the death of print.

The adopting of standards, core competencies, ethics and clarity in our industry will serve to elevate our entire industry. A rising tide lifts ALL boats.

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

morea

04-18-2005, 06:36 PM

and the barnacles attached to them, apparently.

I don't like being thought of as a barnacle. /DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/dry.gif

'They say time is the fire in which we burn.'
- Dr. Tolian Soran

CHRISGEE

04-18-2005, 06:49 PM

morea said...
No offense meant to those of you who had to suffer through art history courses, but in all honesty, what does question #1 have to do with being a graphic designer? How many of my clients are likely to ask me 'Which designer edited and designed the book, The Isms of Art 1914–1924?' Seriously.

I majored in business and music in college, and had to suffer through music history. Again, while it may come in handy for Trivial Pursuit, or if I ever decide to go on 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire', the information I learned in that class has no practical application in the career path I was taking.

I understand that a knowledge of design principles is essential, but honestly, shouldn't we be more concerned with how to properly output a file for printing than which designer wrote what book nearly 100 years ago?

Fair enough. But the design history section of the exam is only one portion of the total exam.

Business Communiction, Studio Management, Legal Issues, Print/Electronic Media (depending on what medium you design for) and issues pertaining to Professional Conduct are all parts of the exam as well. These are good things and if boning up in order to pass the exam forces each of us to read, study, learn and improve our knowledge in these respective areas I think it will serve to make us all better professionals.

More importantly, once standards are established, kids coming out of design school and into the industry will know what areas are necessary -- beyond just the first steps which are completing their design education -- in order to eventually become a qualified professional.

Let's not get too caught up in only one portion of a very detailed exam. That exam is VERY thorough and while there may be aspects that I would change as well, I think it represents a darn good start.

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

CHRISGEE

04-18-2005, 07:04 PM

morea said...
and the barnacles attached to them, apparently.

I don't like being thought of as a barnacle.

Nobody ever referred to you as one. I don't think the goal of any certification is to put anyone down but to uplift the entire industry. In case folks haven't noticed, our industry badly needs uplifting.

Our industry is sick and has been sick for quite a while. The boom time of the 90's and the prosperity that accompanied it, caused us to think that the underlying problems had been solved. Once the bubble burst, it became clear that not only had our problems not been solved, they had gotten worse.

Change is inevitable in our industry. We can either bring about positive change or change will be brought upon us.

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

morea

04-18-2005, 07:20 PM

Quite simply, a designer's forte needs to be communication... that's our specialty. Business sense is important. Being able to connect with our clients and give them what they want is what our jobs are all about.

I am willing, and have always been willing to keep up with the industry. One of the reasons that this career fascinates me is because it is constantly evolving and requires continual learning. I agree that the industry needs to change for the better. But I don't agree that my education is any less valid than one provided by a university.

I have my Associates degree and 115+ college credits. At this point I find ways to educate myself and to bridge the gaps in my formal education. I have taken eLearning courses in Adobe Illustrator. Photoshop, InDesign, Flash, HTML, Dreamweaver and many business formats. This is in addition to 5 years practical work experience. At this point, I don't see a point in spending the time and money to get a formal sheet of paper that says that I know these things.

Still, the fact remains that unlicensed designers would still be looked at as second rate... and I feel that relevant work experience and ability to pass an exam should be plenty of qualifications for certification.

'They say time is the fire in which we burn.'
- Dr. Tolian Soran

Post Edited (morea) : 4/18/2005 3:56:29 PM GMT

04-18-2005, 08:37 PM

I'd like to see the educational system straightened out first.

I have a four year degree in a related field, but I did not study design history and whatnot. I did start the task of completing the second bachelor's in design, but frankly, it was a waste of my time. I learn MUCH MUCH more by doing it the way I always have -- continuous self-study. And yes, it's been a much harder road. But there is just too much to learn and keep on top of in a vocational sense for me to sit in a classroom and listen to somebody that probably doesn't know what they are talking about. (I don't mean to sound 'elitist' but without educational standards, not all design programs are created equal. I only have one university program available in my area and it stinks. I am not willing to move and start from square one at a *good* design program at this point, the ROI would be non-existent.)

My sister just graduated with a degree in GD and she is very much unprepared. She would be in no better position for certification than I would.

I think the transitional period would be very, very difficult for those of us that have spent years doing design without a formal 'design-specific' education. I know I'd probably fall through the cracks, but once critieria was estabished, I might be interested in going back and picking up some education that I missed.

Another point I would like to make is that back in the olden days when I went to college (graduated in 93), a college education had value. Now, we live in a new age. Tech & vocational schools provide a much higher return on investment than a liberal arts degree and many are choosing that route. Mechanics, plumbers, electricians, roofers, construction, computer networking, real estate sales, etc. ... all things that you can do without a 4-year degree and blow a graphic designer's salary out of the water (without the student loans).

So, I think that perhaps we need to think outside the box on this one. In order to compete in a global economy, this whole process must translate into not only a competitive edge for the industry, but it must be sensitive to not placing the barriers to entry TOO high. Personally, I think the 7-years prior to 2000 and continuous work since is a little arbitrary. I know people that have been doing this for that long but still don't know good design from a hole in their butt. Make the certification something that we 'slip through the cracks people' can realistically attain through intense study (I see thick study guides, internet courses, etc.) and allow us the *possibility* of entry.

That's my completely self-serving wishlist, but I think that more people would be open to this idea if they felt there was any realistic way to attain it without having to go back to school and pay tens of thousands of dollars to learn what they *mostly* already know.

And, as has been pointed out -- who remembers anything from college anyway? lol

CHRISGEE

04-18-2005, 08:47 PM

morea said...
Quite simply, a designer's forte needs to be communication... that's our specialty. Business sense is important. Being able to connect with our clients and give them what they want is what our jobs are all about.

I don't see one as being more important than the other. I've seen designers who were great at the communication aspects of their jobs but terrible at the business aspects. Despite how talented they were, their businesses failed.

OTOH, I've seen designers who were great at the business end but just didn't have the talent for design and communications. Ultimately many of those designers found value for themselves in mostly administrative positions that didn't really deal with creating much at all.

Ultimately our industry has to find a way to cultivate designers who are very talented in design but also are able to handle and excel in the business aspects of design. After all, this is a business. If I don't
reconcile the business aspects of my design consultancy, I'm driving a cab. It's no coincedence that this is an area where many in our industry struggle. Pricing, contracts, billing, proposals, marketing. These are all
areas that confound most of us -- as can be evidenced by reading the topics on most design boards -- yet they are aspects that are vital to our survival.

Design is first and foremost. No question. But 1a must be core business practices.

Somebody said...
I am willing, and have always been willing to keep up with the industry. One of the reasons that this career fascinates me is because it is constantly evolving and requires continual learning. I agree that the industry needs to change for the better. But I don't agree that my education is any less valid than one provided by a university.

I don't know anything about your education or your work as a designer. I don't think industry-level change can be evaluated on an individual level. If we don't look at this on an individual level but on an industry level, we concede that the bar must be set somewhere and that it's likely that no matter where it's set, someone will disagree with it.

It's also worth noting that this will likely not affect you and me as much as it will affect designers who are new to the profession 10, 15, 20 years from now. Change and progress happens slowly, not quickly or overnight. The changes we make now will make our industry stronger for future designers. The idea is to improve our industry's standing in the business world and better educate clients. The idea is to bring up better designers who are not just able to make fantastic designs but also are knoweldgable about ethics
and business matters.

morea said...
Still, the fact remains that unlicensed designers would still be looked at as second rate... and I feel that relevant work experience and ability to pass an exam should be plenty of qualifications for certification.

Work experience is absolutely a big consideration in the certification process. Kids right out of design school are not even immediately eligable for consideration to be registered under teh RGD program. And depending on the experience they obtain once they graduate, they may or may not be able to be registered once they have the required amount of years experience under their belts.

And the portfolio review is also a big part of it as well. A person have have work experience and pass an exam but if they have no talent, they won't be able to be registered.

As to whether or not unregistered designers would be seen as second rate, I don't know if that will or will not happen. Again, if we concede that these changes are likely to have an affect on future designers, then I would hope that any young kids with the talent for design will go ahead and fulfill the requirement that would allow them to one day be certified. I hope that our industry would band together and work more with our high schools and design schools to identify young talent at a very early age. Kids who don't have the money could hopefully earn scholarships based on their talent and ability.

When I was in design school, I remember being so envious of the way the ID department worked very closely with practitioners in the outside world. Established ID firms sponsored grants for computers, sponsored contents, meaningful internships and mentorship relationships which resulted in a high percentage of ID department graduates having great job offers before graduation day!

These designers got the opportunity to work in an environment where they could learn from established pros and eventually setup their own shops, if they so desired.

Why doesn't OUR industry have it together like other design disciplines? These are the same kids we went to school with, yet they seem to be working in a more 'grown up' indiustries than we are.

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

04-18-2005, 09:23 PM

how come you never hear 'Will decorate your livingroom for $50 bucks!!' lol

CHRISGEE

04-18-2005, 09:25 PM

EC said...
I'd like to see the educational system straightened out first.

Well the model in Canada actually works with design schools and departments to help them craft curricula that help to meet the needs of the marketplace and teach students not only to be talented designers but give them the tools they will need to actually translate that into employment.

They even have started a very impressive mentorship program (http://www.rgdontario.com/programs/mentorship.php) which, there really is NO excuse why we don't have any sort of structured mentorship program in our own industry.

I agree with you. Design schools have to become accountable. When I was in design school in the 80's, I got a great education. But it was obvious to all, other than my esteemed instructors, that the desktop publishing revolution was going to affect all of us in a VERY real way! My instructors, like most instructors in the top design schools around the country at the time, had their heads in the sand and refused to not only incorporate computer skills into our curriculum but wouldn't even ALLOW computers into our facilities!!!!

We had to bum time off the ID students -- who had a full suite of brand new Macs donated by grants from practicing industrial designers -- or the Architecture students. Their departments realized what was happening in the marketplace and rose to the challenge of meeting those needs. Our department put it's head in the sand, as if to just hope it all went away!

As a result, there were kids who graduated from our program who couldn't find work because most employers were requiring junior designers also had computer skills.

So changes are needed. But once again, it comes down to standards and accountability. Should a design department be able to keep it's GD accrediation if it wants to refuse to allow computers, despite overwhelming evidence that it is to the detriment of their students? NO! But right now, design schools aren't accountable.

Also, parents and students don't have a resource where they can look and say 'hey this program is not recognized by this professional GD body, I wonder why?' Ummmm, cuz their stubbornness is gonna make it tough for you to find a job and repay all those LOANS, that's why! LOL!

EC said...
And, as has been pointed out -- who remembers anything from college anyway? lol

LOL! Well college is where you get your foundation. It's not the whole house, only the foundation. Build a house on a bad foundation and you'll never have a stable home. Start with a good foundation and you're by no means finished. What you DO have is something stable onto which to build. The building that comes afterward is just as important as the foundation.

That's why GD certification HAS to go hand in hand with educational certification. The RGD is doing this. The AIGA, to its credit, is working on design school accredition (http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm?ContentID=148) but is currently ignoring the issue of professional standards, core competencies and business practices.

It's like washing only one hand before you eat.

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

CHRISGEE

04-18-2005, 09:43 PM

EC said...
how come you never hear 'Will decorate your livingroom for $50 bucks!!' lol

LOL! GOOD QUESTION!!!!

Quite simply, because interior designers have their collective sh*t together and we don't. Ever go to the ASID website (http://www.asid.org)?

The Interior Design Industry has been certified for 30 years now. They have 20,000 practicing members over 48 chapters.

Unlike the GD Industry, one doesn't just roll out of bed, download a hacked copy of Publisher and declare themselves an Interior Designer. Their certification process is a 2-day examination period (http://www.asid.org/ASID2/about/memberinfo.asp) that covers 3 sections and is from 8AM - 5PM both days! They test designers knowledge, skills and understanding of professional practices.

In other words, they are an organized and professional industry of grown-ups. We're a cottage industry by comparision.

Is it any wonder that they enjoy a FAR higher profile than we do? They deserve it. They've put in the work and earned it. We're still not sure we have a problem.

Nero: 'Does someone smell smoke? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!'

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)

Post Edited (CHRISGEE) : 4/18/2005 6:01:10 PM GMT

04-18-2005, 10:23 PM

Sure. I have a liberal arts degree, that is my foundation. In no way did it prepare me for a vocation, but I do understand its value. I didn't major in *design*, but I do have that foundation. Now I find out that I put myself through school, worked hard, graduated with honors ... and my foundation isn't good enough. But, in my mind, it IS. I studied communications, so I have certain advantages from that experience. I can't tell you how many times the phrase 'I come from advertising & marketing, so I understand your problem. I am not *just* a designer, I am a marketing consultant' has landed me projects. I also studied business, that comes in handy too. The design courses I *have* taken fall short of being useful.

But, I certainly recognize the advantages a good design program provides. I have worked with top notch designers from top schools, I totally, 100% 'get that'. But, just as MY education 'isn't good enough' -- I can say the exact same thing of theirs. Everyone has gaps in their education once they are unleashed into the real world.

And, what about the students, like my sister, that went through her entire program and was never really taught some very important principals of design? She has absolutely no clue about typography, for example, because that course wasn't offered. She struggles with composition and very simple things. Sure she can create a mean painting or complex illustration, but she struggles with the very basic rules of design! WTF?!!

Yet, they gave her a degree in graphic design. What about people like her -- that have done all the right things? On the one hand, she shouldn't have an advantage over me in terms of certification, on the other -- she should not be punished for that experience in order to overturn this industry without knowing what the real return will be.

Your vision of the future is an excellent one, but there needs to be some sort of solution for the 'transitional' stage is my only point. Serious consideration should be given for SERIOUS people who want to be certified but lose sleep at night worrying that they won't be able to meet the criteria. That it won't be worth it to start over again. And so forth.

I am not taking about the kids that enter into these newly accredited programs, I am talking about, 'What do we do with the thousands of people that WANT certification but the barrier to entry is FAR TOO HIGH.' I think many people view this not just as a job, but as part of their identity that they don't want to give up. They don't want to be lableled as 'non-certified' and be served up the scraps. They want, like all serious designers do, to be taken seriously. And? I think many people deserve to be. Unlike many professions out there, we spend our free time learning, reading, experimenting, striving to be better. Others get to punch out at 5 o'clock and have a life. lol How sad to be faced with giving all that up, looking back and viewing all of that as just a waste of time because we didn't make the right decisions when we were 17 years old.

Compare to other licensed professionals such as electricians or hell, nail techs or hair dressers even -- they may or may not have a four-year university degree. But they have professional standards nonetheless and must have a license to conduct business. And again, in some cases, are pulling in more dollars that liberal arts/design majors.

Why can't there be alternatives to education, other than a four-year university degree? This is the world we are living in now. I wouldn't trade my liberal arts degree for anything, but so many people nowadays recognize that a 'SKILLED' profession is yielding a much higher return on their investment.

And what about global competition? I seriously doubt an architect or interior designer loses much sleep worrying about their competition in India. This here internet, this computer you're sitting at -- puts us at a tremendous competitive disadvantage on so many levels.

We need standards, but there are serious practical economic considerations that we all must ask ourselves -- 'Is it worth it?' And, to make it work, it MUST BE. Otherwise, it will make no impact -- the big fancy design firms and the big fish clients with big budgets will find each other just as they always have. And people that serve smaller businesses will see that all the trouble for certification just won't be worth it.

Is this a big tent? Or not.

The whole point of this, I hope, is not to reward people for going to snooty design schools, and shut out people that took a different route. I think the transitional period might potentially hurt the industry in that it will create two groups of people -- those that either went through excellent programs and stuck with the profession OR, those that are not interested in certification who will see this as an opportunity to, even moreso, to turn to PRICE as their competitive advantage and flood the market with even more 'I know I am not a professional, but I can do this and I can do it cheap!' Bottom line is, will the client care? If your portfolio is up to snuff, probably not. There will always be a market for cheap design -- and I think that unlike Interior Design, some of these things are a NEED, not a want, because you can start your business with ugly carpeting, but can you start it without a business card?

I think the fear, Chris, is that some of us would be forced to take our place in the second category. And we don't want to.

There are thousands of people working in the field right now and the transitional period must provide options for them as well. What I don't understand is this 'seven years prior to 2000' ... that is an impossibility for me no matter which way you slice it. So my only option is to boost my education -- but I've already got a four year degree. So, what's in it for me?

I am not against certification per say, but I think we need to be thinking about competitive advantage, return on investment and alternatives for entry. I am playing devil's advocate on much of this, but I think it's needed.

morea

04-18-2005, 10:29 PM

EC said...

Serious consideration should be given for SERIOUS people who want to be certified but lose sleep at night worrying that they won't be able to meet the criteria. That it won't be worth it to start over again. And so forth.

I think many people view this not just as a job, but as part of their identity that they don't want to give up. They don't want to be lableled as "non-certified" and be served up the scraps. They want, like all serious designers do, to be taken seriously.

How sad to be faced with giving all that up, looking back and viewing all of that as just a waste of time because we didn't make the right decisions when we were 17 years old.

I think the fear, Chris, is that some of us would be forced to take our place in the second category. And we don't want to.
That's it in a nutshell. Well said, EC.

'They say time is the fire in which we burn.'
- Dr. Tolian Soran

Kool

04-18-2005, 10:31 PM

Well I'll say one thing about this thread, I bet it holds the forum record for the most words per post. /DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/cool.gif

Sound advice I recieved from my 2 1/2 year old granddaughter:

'Grandpa, don't eat the popcorn bones'

04-18-2005, 10:39 PM

LOL I know Kool, I got to talkin' and was like WOW. Them therez a lotta werds! /DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/blink.gif

Keyare

04-18-2005, 10:55 PM

Yeah. Tone it down guys. :)

(Or use bold text or callouts when there's something important that summarizes what you are saying because I am your average lazy reader)

I like this comment by EC:

'You can start your business with ugly carpeting, but can you start it without a business card?'

Man I could turn that into a whole ad campaign for business cards. I love it!

'You can start your business without a fire-breathing dwarf, but not without a business card.'
''You can start your business with out Green Snake-Oil #32, but not without a business card.'

CHRISGEE

04-18-2005, 11:18 PM

Well your concerns are valid, Taughnee. And playing devil's advocate at this point is what is needed IMO. We HAVE to start talking about this, even if it's not pleasant. Less pleasant is the downward direction in which our industry is currently headed.

I would imagine that if Certification became a reality in the GD market, it would likely have a grandfather period just as the RGD program did when it began. They grandfathered at 2000 because that is the year when they actually began giving out accreditation.

So in effect, they said at that point in time that talented designers who had been working and established up until that point could become registered without needing a degree. But as the years went on, it would be increasingly difficult to do so.

Similarly, if Certification started in the U.S. in 2010, we could also say 'any talented designer working as a designer up until 2010 and with 7 or more years of experience and who fulfills all the other criteria can be certified'. But a designer in 2017 with 10 years experience would not be able to be grandfathered.

So the tent is open, just as it was in the beginning of the RGD process.

I suspect that if Certification in our field were to become a reality in 2010, folks would be able to see the writing on the wall long before then. The RGD program plans had been in the works for a long time before it actually happened.

I suspect folks who could be grandfathered wouldn't really need to do anything but continue producing good work. Perhaps those just starting out their careers in 2008 might consider getting a design school education.

The RGD grandfathering clause, IMO, was very fair and inclusive at the time they began. We're now looking at it 5 years later. They simply could not keep that window open indefinitely, nor could we in the U.S. once Certification became a reality. But if we adopted the RGD model, you would have the opportunity to be Certified.

Chris Gee
www.thepreparedmind.com (http://www.thepreparedmind.com)