professional logo creation questions. samples included.

[The Lurker]

edit: (i posted this question in the printing/prepress forum because saving/separating and output is mainly the issue with my problem, more than just the aesthetics. creating a correct print ready file. i think. in a weird way. hmmm)

hello
i sometimes come on here to ask questions cheap schools don't have the answer for. i figure some of you professionals can share some of your wonderous words of wisdom with the kid.

my question is regards to any logo with (tasteful) filtered looking effects. if you look at the links i've provided, you'll see some very nice logos that don't look like pure vector graphics. examples include Bill Gardner's Anjou Bakery and Bolton's Grille and Bar logos.

how do designers create logos with that hand crafted feel, yet in vector format? are these just super hi-res raster logos? is that even done? do designers create complex logos in photoshop at a super high dpi at any point? how do you create fine distressed/transparent effects to a vector logo?

since masking in illustrator is such a pain in the cracker, i'm not sure how this is achieved.

please help! exclamation.

i've provided a couple links with examples.

Bolton's and Anjou Bakery examples
http://www.gardnerdesign.com/Default.aspx?mode=1&p=97&ident=97&page=1

Dandurand Drugstore
http://www.danduranddrugs.com/logo_images/T/T61QTG322XFX9L3QT09E3JEUDS196K3E.gif

here there are Mezzotint samples.
http://www.logolounge.com/articles/default.asp?Archive=True&ArticleID=384

the Dandurand logo is another kind of logo that puzzles me. it has a noise kind of effect going on. i could reproduce it, but only with layer effects and things. how would i create something like this, but as a flat eps logo? hmmmm.

if any of you are bored enough to actually help me, that would rock. i've been meaning to post a question like this forever but always end up getting sidetracked. spending months trying to find the answer on my own. i guess it wont hurt to ask.

thank you.

[semioticantics]

I'm not sure I can answer all of your questions, but...

how do designers create logos with that hand crafted feel, yet in vector format?
I think it really starts with color choice. Earthy, or natural tones help a lot. Next, it comes down to using layer effects, filters, and blending modes. Just because it's vector doesn't mean it's flat color or lines. Brooke Nunez, who I was lucky enough to see speak, does work like this (http://lifeinvector.com/?cat=3&paged=3) completely in vector.

are these just super hi-res raster logos? is that even done? do designers create complex logos in photoshop at a super high dpi at any point?
No.

There are a lot of really good illustrator tutorials, and there's perhaps a few on the site I linked. It's an absolutely invaluable tool.

[The Lurker]

thanks so much for taking the time to reply and supply those links. it will definately save me a couple of months of looking in the wrong direction.

i figure most finished logos to be flat and minimal as possible. so i never thought to see guys like bill gardner or any other professional using layer effects, gradients, or other things of the sort on their logos. i'm not sure exactly how complex a file should be when giving it to a client. like, do you give multiple flattened formats and then a master illustrator or freehand file. things like that.

i haven't had the privilege of working for a larger design firm or going to a big money school, so most times my questions are ignored because...well, most times they just don't know the answer. god bless the internet.

anyways, thank you.

[semioticantics]

No problem at all.

A logo being flat and minimal really depends on the company and its applications. After reading an article on the subject, I think Microsoft Silverlight's logo mark (despite their poor brand-uniform typography) is a good example of this.

http://silverlight.net/Themes/silverlight/images/logo.jpg

It's software. It will never be in print. The designer didn't have to care about materials other than a screen, and the end-result shows it. It's organic, digital, flowing, clean, clear, and a bunch of other adjectives. It gives me the feelings an exciting new technology should (whether it is or not) and does so largely in part because of the "24-bit PNG w/Alpha Transparency" look.

The medium affects what you can do.

In fact, here is the article (http://www.logoorange.com/logo-design-08.php) because it's a good read.

As for giving files to a client, it depends on the relationship there. If they own the full rights to it (make sure they pay appropriately) you generally want to give a final .ai or .eps file, layers etc should be intact. You're giving it to them because they want or need to work from it, so shape it up in a way that's easy to work from.

Each situation may be different and the end-result should be considered. If it's going to print, are you handling the printing or are they? In either case, the printer defines what is needed, the client is just a middle man in that transaction. If it's for the web, get the web person what he needs.

There are a whole host of graphic design sites and blogs, covering trends, inspiration, theory, and anything else a designer might care about. Spending a lot of time with those is helpful, even necessary. Live design.

[PrintDriver]

It's software. It will never be in print. The designer didn't have to care about materials other than a screen, and the end-result shows it.

Never, ever assume this. Microsoft presents their material at tradeshows and events that sell the product, not to mention the product packaging and perhaps store displays are all printed too. That logo is probably created in several different formats, all raster, but all with the necessary resolution to go BIG if necessary.

Another company with a similar logo issue is X-Box. Having done their logo large, I can say, getting the file required a CD. Not something you want to get via download. LOL!

Some of the examples you showed are using lots of Illustrator Effects, transparency, gradients and Meshes. Illustrator is no longer a strictly Vector program. Fuzzy drop shadows and glows are Raster Effects and should ALWAYS be applied as EFFECTS not filters when creating a logo. Raster Effects are scaleable. Raster Filters are not.

My favorite example of the consequences of using Illustrator transparency is the Ebay logo. "Oh we are just creating a logo that will only ever be seen online so we'll use transparency! It's SO Cool!" Well, Ebay became something a little more than a little online banner logo. Now their logo is what, 7 spot colors where the transparency overlaps? LOL!

And as far as meshes or gradients go, there are always areas where the colors are mixing that are sometimes very hard to get correct in print. It's very rip dependent. Most Mesh types are easier to convert into raster format before even attempting to print them. Gradients in Illy are not meant to be printed over 8" wide. They step or band when printed larger. Again we end up translating into raster before print to get them to appear smooth.

Never assume a logo isn't going to go someplace other than its first method of appearance.

Logo files generally belong to the client who requests them. Who would want an outside entity owning rights to the corporate logo? Charge accordingly. You not only want to give them .ai, .eps, .pdf, and maybe RGB .jpg for web use, you want to provide them with a Standards booklet that shows them and their printers what colors are used when and how. On white paper, on colored backgrounds, vertical stacked versions, horizontal versions, Black & White versions, White on Black/Color versions, etc, ad nauseum. Some logo Standards books, Microsoft's for instance, are an inch thick and tell you what you can and absolutely CANNOT do with a logo. Make it a presentation folder with the CD included, all nicely packaged.

It's also a good idea to do a trademark search for your client, or pay to have one done, just so you can be sure there are no other companies using a similar logo or tag. Most little clients don't want to pay for this service and none of the online logo mills offer it. But it should be done in the interests of your client. A logo is not just another pretty picture.

Whoa. Sorry for the rant. :D

[semioticantics]

Never, ever assume this. Microsoft presents their material at tradeshows and events that sell the product, not to mention the product packaging and perhaps store displays are all printed too.
Which is why I don't design that way. However, being a media tool attached to Windows, Silverlight is not something that is sold, and when presented at a tradeshow I expect it would be projected instead of printed.

The only time I can see this being printed is for books on how to use it, but since Silverlight allows developers to just use Visual Basic (I think), the book is more likely to use *that* logo.

Every time I think of a time it'd be printed, it gets swiped away, hence the earlier (perhaps rash) generalization.

Some of the examples you showed are using lots of Illustrator Effects, transparency, gradients and Meshes. Illustrator is no longer a strictly Vector program. Fuzzy drop shadows and glows are Raster Effects and should ALWAYS be applied as EFFECTS not filters when creating a logo. Raster Effects are scaleable. Raster Filters are not.

Very true, and sorry for any missteps in my words. Effects are scalable, but still rasterizations.

And as far as meshes or gradients go, there are always areas where the colors are mixing that are sometimes very hard to get correct in print. It's very rip dependent. Most Mesh types are easier to convert into raster format before even attempting to print them. Gradients in Illy are not meant to be printed over 8" wide. They step or band when printed larger. Again we end up translating into raster before print to get them to appear smooth.

Why is this? Is it the limitations of the colorspace?

Whoa. Sorry for the rant.
It helps :)

[PrintDriver]

Don't assume that an attached media tool will not be touted large. All I'm saying is I'm sure Microsoft has hi-res versions of that logo available. They tend to plan accordingly. That's all I ask. Plan accordingly even if you can't fathom a reason why it would be needed at the outset. I cannot tell you how many online companies have come to me for a show banner only to find that their online-only logo does not have the rez to be printed.

If you read the documentation on Illustrator it will tell you, somewhere, that gradient effects are limited to 8" (+/-). It is a function of the program. If you want a smooth gradient over a number of feet (or sometimes even just a magazine spread), you have to know this. Some colors combos will work ok, others don't. Either speak to your printer beforehand to get the resolution and noise ratio you need to do it as a placed raster, or pay them the desktop time to do it for you optimized to their particular print device. I've seen Illy banding in blue-to-white gradients that turns pink at about the 20% section due to the way the rip translates the diminishing percentages. It's just the way it is.

As far as meshes go, there is no way to control the color mix percentages and wide format rips are not plate seps. They see things differently and ink percentages produce some strange, nasty, muddy results. Converting to raster on a mesh can sometimes help but again, speak with the printer. They may have to do the conversion for you after all color matching has been determined for the output device they will be using.

["Technical" Terry]

I'm not sure if I am reading the original post correctly or not. Here is how I interpreted it:
"How do you make fancy looking logos?"

I say start with the idea of course. Now produce it with the tool in which you are most comfortable. I don't care what it is, pencil & paper, photoshop, word, whatever gets the idea into a visual medium as quickly as possible before you lose the vision. Once the rough idea can be seen, I try to produce it in Illy. Why? Just like printdriver said, I have no idea how far this thing is going to go. I find it most difficult to convert a pixel format to vector...it is much easier to go from vector to pixels. So, now with a vector format I can scale it to any size, and then convert for any other format that is needed.

It definitely doesn't happen this way every time though. As with anything "creative" you have to break the rules sometime, whether on purpose or accident. I may make something "great" in photoshop that I just don't have the skill enough to make into vectors. (that's when I outsource)

[Crimson]

OP- I think you are short changing yourself by your lack of confidence, experience or knowledge in Illustrator. Somethings are simpler to explain than how they look. Visual tricks like drawing in perspectives and vanish points can fool the eye but the training is available. Keep working at it and you will become an illusionist like the rest of us... And like PD said- Think ahead!