Saddle-Stiched Nightmare

[bkester2]

Hi all,

I thought I would reach out to the pool of experience and see if I had anyone with a solution to my puzzle.

Our client needs to have a saddle-stitched book with tabs. I have traditionally only seen tabs in other types of binding like spiral binding, but never in tabs.

TWO QUESTIONS

Is a saddle-stitched book with tabs doable? (Qty. 20k+)

&

How could one prepare for creep (outpush) so that everything lines up once it gets binded?

Thanks for any suggestions or help, I'm really clueless on this one.

[jimking]

Sure. How many pages and what stock? Are the tabbed pages on separate stock from the text or is the text pages also tabbed? The printer should handle the creep, they most likely have the imposition software to do this quickly.

[bkester2]

80lb text Magna more than likely. Also, this would be the same stock throughout tabs and text pages. Do think any printer could handle this or would I have to use a special bindery?

Have you run jobs like this before?

Thanks for your help.

[SpugNothuson]

Definately have to have a word with the printer/finisher for this job.

Some SaddleStitch machine would struggle to grab a tabbed page, also folding the tabbed page could be an issue.

It's a doable job, but you may have to source another finishing company for the ideal end result.

[jimking]

No, I don't think any printer would do this job. How many pages? A job like this needs some thinking so you should seriously put together a "dummy" or model together so you can see the exact placement of the tabs and their crossover pages to see how this would be laid out. Also there will be diecutting involved, which can dictate how this would be laid out for diecutting and folding. This would be a bit of a trick since the tabs and the text are on the same stock. They may want to diecut it in small sheets or large. This may depend on the type of saddle stitcher the printer uses. Also, folding will be a issue when the tabs are created because 80lb text is not as rigid as cover stock. I would put together a dummy and find yourself a printer to help you work out the plans of a job like this.

[Jam]

I have never heard of doing something like that, how do you tie in the tabbed pages to the rest of the document, its fine if they appear in equal places so that one tab crosses over the stitching and becomes a second tab.
But then how do you trim the document?
The document would need to be trimmed before it is stitched?

What about Perfect binding?
A wrap around cover, the pages drop in and I am sure you could add dividers without any trouble.
Might be cheaper as the finishing costs would be alot less.

[bkester2]

This job will have to be saddle-stitched, they won't budge on that one.

Would it help if the Tabs were a different stock?

We are working on getting a dummy made up for the job as well, from the paper company, but we are going to have to cut the tabs ourself for a mock-up—so that won't help determine if its doable.

Thanks for everyone's comments. This is great help.

[Virgo Nightingale]

If the tabs are different stocks, then there will be random pages in there on the different stock, unless you work it out so that the tabs always land on the same sheet (ie each section between is 6 pages long, etc.).

How many pages is this? I can't imagine a piece that has few enough pages to work for saddle stitching being long enough to really need tabs.

Tabs + saddle stitch sounds like hell to pull off well.

[budafist]

I've never seen this done and it hurts my head.

Perhaps the reason why people don't bind tabbed books is because of the creep?

I'm going to ask my boss a bit later. He's busy at the moment and I don't want to hurt his head either.

[jimking]

I'd like to know how many tabs and pages this is.

[bkester2]

24 pages + 9 tabs. The tabs are stepped.

The document needs tabs because it is being used in sales, and the sales person needs the ability to quickly flip to data.

thanks again to everyone.

[Virgo Nightingale]

So only one single leaf between some of these tabs? That sounds like a waste. Someone who knows the book well enough should be able to know where to find what they're looking for quickly enough within 24 pages without the tabs. But I'm not the client, so what do I know. :)

Have they thought about color coding the sections and having a colored bar bleed off the right edge? They can even be stepped, like a faux tab. The color should still be visible when you fan out the pages a little so you should easily be able to find the section you're looking for. Just a suggestion; might be easier than trying to do something that might be harder than it's worth.

[jimking]

lets say the tabs run on cover stock, which leaves a problem. Since this is a saddle stitch, for every tab there must be an opposite page because in order for these to saddle stitch they must fold in order to be saddled and then stitched. So, you'd end up with a total of 18 pages, run on cover stock, leaving 9 as tabs and 9 as blank pages. The only way I see to rectify this somewhat is to create a short 1" fold to saddle stitch.
Now, lets say the tabs are done on 80lb text. In this case, since there are 9 tabs and every tab has an opposite side, that means 9 pages out of your 24pger should print opposite the 9 tabs (spreads). The fact there are 9 tabs, an odd number might become an issue. Having no dummy in front of me its hard to tell. Also, it may become a trick to layout those tabs correctly with its opposite without placing blanks into the book. The printer must be able to lay the job out so that the tabs and there opposites can be diecut. Then there is extra labor involved. The tabs need to be diecut and then folded by themselves and their face trim should be final because of the tabs. This means the balance of the book needs its face trim finalized first before collating and stitching. When it's collated and stitched it is then the head and foot are trimmed. Sounds like a headache to me and expensive. Couldn't you sell them a spiral bound book? :D

[budafist]

So only one single leaf between some of these tabs? That sounds like a waste. Someone who knows the book well enough should be able to know where to find what they're looking for quickly enough within 24 pages without the tabs. But I'm not the client, so what do I know. :)

Have they thought about color coding the sections and having a colored bar bleed off the right edge? They can even be stepped, like a faux tab. The color should still be visible when you fan out the pages a little so you should easily be able to find the section you're looking for. Just a suggestion; might be easier than trying to do something that might be harder than it's worth.

Virgo's right, a coloured border (trim edge) would be much more cost effective for this job.

[graphk1]

Diecut the tabs but not all the way.
Diecut the face and extend the cut about a quarter inch past the final head and foot trims.

This way you can fold the pages as four page sigs with the waste falling off once the final trims are made.

The creep is based on the caliber of the stock multiplied by the number of sheets toward the center. The printer can do the math but be aware of the fact that the inner pages grow increasingly smaller (from spine to face) toward the center during the design stage.

[bkester2]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts on this project.

I have proceeded with laying the book out. It is going to be 100 lb cover & 80 pound cover for the inside.

I appreciate the thought on the color pages—trust me I've tried—no budging, and I guess money is not an issue, so no spiral bound either.

I have a printer that is working with me, so I will let you know what the final verdict on this project is in. It's going to take time and money—but anything is possible.

Thanks again.

[bkester2]

Hi all,

The printer has no problem in completing the job, it's just going to take a longer turn around and cost more money for all of the finishing involved.

I actually found a printed sample today from someone that did a small booklet 20+ pages on a similar stock with tabs, and it even had a pocket. So I feel a lot better about this job now.

I think the two tricks that come into this project are using the same stock for tabs & text pages. And, making sure that the stock you pick is heavy enough to be functional as a tab, but not too heavy that the piece becomes bulky, doesn't lay flat, and causes too much creep. In this book we are using McCoy (80#) cover.

Don't know if this helps anyone out for future projects, but thanks again to everyone who threw in their two cents and ideas.

[bkester2]

We got the finished pieces back from the printer today and they look great. What a stressful job though, the problems you might encounter with a job like this are movement from the pages, if the stock is too heavy and you have too many pages, make sure you stay on top of the bindery.

[Jam]

any chance of a looky - photo?