Just how much is too much?

[meccajos]

Okay, I am in my 2nd year and will graduate in May. We are presently working hard on getting our printed and digital portfolios together. As part of the process we hang a piece of our work on the bulletin board that has been graded already from a previous project. The teacher looks at it and circles the things that still need to be changed...we go back to our computer, change it, put it back up...more changes....more changes...MORE CHANGES, etc., etc., etc. Then if we're lucky we FINALLY get to proceed to the next one. This process can go on and on until you don't think you will EVER have anything for your portfolio! The teacher is outstanding and wants our work to be perfect and I understand needing to change things but when it comes down to kerning something as much as a hair, or taking off a tiny spec that is visible only under a microscope... is this a bit too much? I mean, how much is too much??? Will prospective employers look at your work that closely..like with a loupe?

How is it in the workforce? Do your employers inspect your things under a microscope?

[Kool]

He's just getting you ready for potential clients LOL. :D

[CkretAjint]

Welcome to the real world... :p

[meccajos]

I would love to hear some scenarios on this subject. I realize and am totally willing to accept that you will be going back and forth with a client until it's perfect for them but I just wonder when enough is enough? When do they finally accept things?

[mojoprime]

well, it's usually driven by a deadline, i.e., some folks will make changes right up until they actually need the project in-hand. typically, in the real world, we limit the number of revisions in our contracts. something like, you X number of changes included in the price, and then everything beyond that is $$ dollars per hour.

but remember, when you're out of school, you're not playing around anymore. people are coming to you expecting work from a professional. nothing less than perfect is acceptable anymore. look at a text book or a magazine (most of them, at least). there should be no errors, no "fudged" layouts. that's because when you're out charging for your services, the things you do must be spot-on.

here's the other thing. if you're a freelancer, people that are coming to you are often small business owners, needing a wesbite, a logo, brochure, something. they have precious little money (like you) and are always in over their heads on the marketing side on things, and probably everywhere else. they put their trust in you to take care of them and give them the best product that you can give them, for the money. you owe them your level best. anything less, it's insults your client and it insults our industry.

so, yeah, get used to the changes and the scrutiny. if you're not paying that close of attention on your projects now, START NOW.

[Tea]

Well...I'm not a graphic designer, but recently (actually the project started over a year ago) I put together a slide show/movie. It was a historical project covering 50 years of basically photos. I scanned, edited, retouched over 300 photos. I added titles, text and music and the clients viewed the moive at least 4 times, each time with edits. With a final approval, I burned 200 copies, and they loved them. Sadly they came to me again because of some very upset procrastinators and I revised the film to their liking not only once, but twice. The original clients were very pleased with the work, but there was some others who are still bad mouthing them because they didn't get included. Anyway...I'm finally finished with the project and learned a ton on the way about how and what to put in a contract, what and when the project will be done and I think that will be the basis of when they finallly accept things. I think for real clients, it's all about the money and how much someone is willing to pay to have it done right. But mojo is right...do it right the first time. However, unwarranted changes can drive you crazy.

[meccajos]

I appreciate your input. I guess what drives me crazy is the fact that being a newbie, I can't possibly see a difference in some of the things I need to change. I think sometimes we are asked to change something that will have no effect on the human eye...just our instructors. For instance, if you have a letter next to a bullet and you kerned say from a zero to a one can you really tell a difference? Is this what I should expect from clients?

[morea]

it depends on the client.

When I worked at a print shop, we had a client reject a business card order because the placement of the text was off by 1/64". The job had to be reprinted.

[Broacher]

It's not pickiness per se that drives us nuts-- it's meaningless pickiness.

The same client who might have had nothing to say about layout, colour or fonts can suddenly jump up at the proof stage and say something like, "I think that has too much magenta in the blue". They essentially just want to 'feel' like they're more of a part of the design process.

I had a printer friend who used to cleverly handle clients like this by showing them a proof where he would intentionally overcrank a noticeable colour so that he could respond, "Hey, you know... you're right! Thanks for spotting that. We'll adjust it right away." Worked like a charm. You can do the same thing in design. Work out 'obvious' but not too obvious mistakes for compulsive micro-managing clients to 'correct'.

[Drazan]

Definitely depends on the client and what you have in your contract.

When you deal with corporate guides you have no choice but to follow their guidelines exactly to the micrometer inch.

Be glad your teacher is taking so much time to correct those nuances that change a mediocre piece to something professional. Mediocre pieces may eventually get you a job, but when you are competing against so many people in the industry you really have to have exceptional work to be noticed.

As you learn and gain experience, those now circled corrections should become second nature for you to notice before anyone else has a chance to correct you. Many times there is no one else to catch those errors before it goes out to a client. Before you hand over a project self critique it, that will be a great asset to your future skills.

Jade

[frankster]

It's not pickiness per se that drives us nuts-- it's meaningless pickiness.

The same client who might have had nothing to say about layout, colour or fonts can suddenly jump up at the proof stage and say something like, "I think that has too much magenta in the blue". They essentially just want to 'feel' like they're more of a part of the design process.

I had a printer friend who used to cleverly handle clients like this by showing them a proof where he would intentionally overcrank a noticeable colour so that he could respond, "Hey, you know... you're right! Thanks for spotting that. We'll adjust it right away." Worked like a charm. You can do the same thing in design. Work out 'obvious' but not too obvious mistakes for compulsive micro-managing clients to 'correct'.

I think of it as a personality disorder. I had a flat mate that when asked if something was ok would always make a minor change of no significance just to have done something or to be the one who perfected it. For example adding a teaspoon extra of milk to pancake batter etc. It used to amuse me and I would ask him his opinion on things frequently just to see if there would ever be an occasion where he's say "that's fine" or "it looks ok to me". It never happened in 2 years of house sharing. I worry about people like this raising children.

[budafist]

No one ever learned anything from a teacher that was easy on them. Just suck it up and listen to your teacher. You can disagree or call him/her pendantic, but they are teaching you to see what others might miss.

You don't have to be so pedantic later in life, but being able to see what can be perfected is a good skill to learn.

I had a teacher that gave almost every student the lowest mark possible to pass. We were all so mad at him but at the end of the day, we only have to pass to get our degrees. By him doing that to us, we all tried so hard in his class to get above a "just pass".

[bandwagon]

It's not pickiness per se that drives us nuts-- it's meaningless pickiness.

The same client who might have had nothing to say about layout, colour or fonts can suddenly jump up at the proof stage and say something like, "I think that has too much magenta in the blue". They essentially just want to 'feel' like they're more of a part of the design process.

I had a printer friend who used to cleverly handle clients like this by showing them a proof where he would intentionally overcrank a noticeable colour so that he could respond, "Hey, you know... you're right! Thanks for spotting that. We'll adjust it right away." Worked like a charm. You can do the same thing in design. Work out 'obvious' but not too obvious mistakes for compulsive micro-managing clients to 'correct'.
excellent. I will have to try something like that one day. Occasionally my boss can be a little too picky.

[garricks]

meccajos, save every one of those proofs. Put them away for five years, then pull them out and look at them.

Then you’ll understand! :D

My very first GD project was a book, done in 1988. It’s still in print, with my name in it. I look at it every so often to remind myself how far I’ve come. It wasn’t awful, but it was far from perfect!

[frankster]

Yeah, there's a huge difference between perfectionism comming from someone who is highly trained in a subject that you can learn from and busting out a titration kit to make pancake batter.

[meccajos]

I guess it's hard on us and seems senseless because all we want to do is get our portfolios together and graduate! Time is of the essence and the panic mode has set in.

Drazan, I understand about getting exceptional work noticed but on the other hand....if the teacher is making you change so much...is it really going to be "my" work or the teachers? He wanted me to change something once and I told him no because it was his idea and not mine. I want credit where credit is due regardless of landing the good job or not. I mean, if I get the job, I want to be able to stand behind my work and for them not to hire someone that they "thought" was exceptional.

[garricks]

Time is of the essence and the panic mode has set in.

And that's almost every moment of my in-house working life! :D You're getting some good oversight there!

[budafist]

Don't let the perfectionism get to you. Be confident that all you need to graduate is a pass. You've got that. All you are doing now is getting better and better until the deadline happens.

[meccajos]

THANKS - I have a 4.0 GPA and I'm so worried it will get messed up if I don't do everything he says. Does a GPA even come into the picture when you apply? If not maybe I need to just relax and pass.

And please tell me ALL GD jobs aren't going to be like this.....?

I know this is all going to help but like I said earlier, I want this to be MY work. If it's perfect they will expect perfect...and I'm NOT.

Well, off to school...maybe today will be a better one. THANKS everyone for your input. It really helps to vent!

[Drazan]

Have you asked "why" she wants to make the change? Other than Change this being a yes or no answer ask why. Is the change because it doesn't follow a design rule? Or is the change because she want's you to feel what it is like to work with a client.

If you say "no, I won't make the change" to a client, then that client may walk or give you bad PR. Now if you approach not doing the change with good design reasoning,then perhaps you can convince a client to not make the change. In the end though the client pays the bills no matter what gets put out.

[Tea]

THANKS - I have a 4.0 GPA and I'm so worried it will get messed up if I don't do everything he says. Does a GPA even come into the picture when you apply? If not maybe I need to just relax and pass.

And please tell me ALL GD jobs aren't going to be like this.....?

I know this is all going to help but like I said earlier, I want this to be MY work. If it's perfect they will expect perfect...and I'm NOT.

Well, off to school...maybe today will be a better one. THANKS everyone for your input. It really helps to vent!

I'm thinking Drazan's idea is very good. Are you comfortable approaching this professor?

The 4.0 probably will not come into play with your job interviews. Your portfolio will speak for itself. I had a 4.0 going until my fourth year and I finally got a B. What a weight off my shoulders! It was putting so much pressure on me to keep that up.

[meccajos]

I agree. I think I've become obcessed with maintaining the 4.0 and then I wonder for what? A personal thing I suppose but it's getting to the point where like you, the weight off the shoulders would be welcome.

I will talk to the instructor and let you all know what he says....pray for me.

Thanks to you all. I wouldn't have gotten through all of this without being able to vent and get your advice & help on everything.

Peace & hugs!

[createdirector]

So...I noticed a lot of the feedback was based on working freelance or at least seemingly. If you work on an in house creative team it typically is always changes until the project is due especially on large projects. I worked at a place previously where they tried to restrict the number of revisions to try to get approvers to pay closer attention to the pieces and it never worked.

As far as for your portfolio I would say that it is important to make sure everything is as close to perfect as it can be because you only have one chance to make a first impression. In some cases you are not interviewed by other designers, sometimes you are interviewed by marketing professionals who may have a less detailed eye, but you never know who you are going to get until you walk in the door. If you are showing another designer your work they are going to notice the imperfections. So it is really for your own good.

I would also prepare yourself for questions like "what is your biggest weakness in your design?" Answer them honestly, I know it sounds a little weird, but if you have trouble with composition and they recognize that, but don't think you see it then you will not hear from them again. However if you do recognize it and call it out then they will know that you are working on perfecting it just by stating that you are aware of it.

Good luck and be aware that you will be working for clients now and a lot of your work will not be about what you like or what you want to design. It is about what they want, and they usually don't know what that is until they have said no to a bunch of things. :D

[meccajos]

THANK you so much for the input!

[budafist]

Good points raised about asking the tutor "why?". You will learn more and it's possible that you might not agree with your tutor.

In the real world there are times when we have to use our better judgement and advise our clients why we think that their design could be made better by not following their initial idea.

Maybe you tutor keeps asking you to change random things because they are waiting for you to say "no, that's not a good idea because...".

[meccajos]

A lot of the changes are understandable. The ones that we don't get are things like tiny itty bitty specs that you would normally not even notice - or to have to move something so slightly that when you put the before and after together you can't even tell a difference. Those changes drive us all batty as we need to move on to the next piece or we won't have anything in our portfolios! I know we're being prepared for the real world but we just don't have the time to correct what we feel are senseless irregularities. Sometimes after we've made 4-5 changes, he will be like one inch from the paper for what seems like forever....just looking and looking for something to make us change.

[Drazan]

^^ We have clients like that. It's not so bad. Wait til you have someone use a micrometer on the width of a stripe on a logo. Had that happen too. :D

If you ever do wide format and your design doesn't match up by just 1/64" or less it will become blatently obvious when your upsized print shows 1/4" or more. We've even had logos adjusted because the flaw blew up 1/4" x 10" in bright sunny yellow along a black background.

We've been commissioned numerous times to adjust existing logos because flaws will show up when they are upsized for wide format. Even in vector based logos.

Still ask the teacher why. It may be that you are moving it because of that flaw, or because it's slightly out of balance or any other numberous reasons. He has to have a reason else why would he have you change it?

Jade

[meccajos]

True...

I will talk to him tomorrow. I'll let you know what he says.

Have a great day!

[Tea]

Drazan...that's an excellent point. I'll have to remember that for my students.

[createdirector]

^^ We have clients like that. It's not so bad. Wait til you have someone use a micrometer on the width of a stripe on a logo. Had that happen too. :D

If you ever do wide format and your design doesn't match up by just 1/64" or less it will become blatently obvious when your upsized print shows 1/4" or more. We've even had logos adjusted because the flaw blew up 1/4" x 10" in bright sunny yellow along a black background.

We've been commissioned numerous times to adjust existing logos because flaws will show up when they are upsized for wide format. Even in vector based logos.

Still ask the teacher why. It may be that you are moving it because of that flaw, or because it's slightly out of balance or any other numberous reasons. He has to have a reason else why would he have you change it?

Jade
That is exactly what I was going to say. Those tiny specs are nothing in regular format printing, but when you are making a billboard, covering a wall, car, truck, etc those tiny specs would be huge.

[meccajos]

So...does it really matter when it's in your portfolio?

[budafist]

So...does it really matter when it's in your portfolio?

It doesn't really matter for portfolio's sake, but if you tutor is marking it, then you should listen to them.

At the end of the day, you don't have to take their advice, but it is in your best interest to. They are also teaching you to see what you didn't/couldn't see before.

[CkretAjint]

They are also teaching you to see what you didn't/couldn't see before.

I cmae across some old graded papers of mine the other day and flipping through them i can NOW see what the teacher was trying to get me to fix with their non-stop changes. Granted it was for the better, but at the time I didn't see a reason to make the change. But now I do.... :)

[budafist]

Ahuh!

There are jobs that I come across that I did when I first started working here and I can see mistakes in them that I couldn't see before. That's a good thing though. We are all constantly growing....well, some of us are constantly growing. The others just get by.