"but if your client is happy with it and paid you, I guess it doesn't really matter"

[artistsdad]

"...but if your client is happy with it and paid you, I guess it doesn't really matter"

I pulled this off a post on another thread, mainly because it intrigued me. Immensely. At one time, the quality of a person's work was the most important thing because of the direct reflection of the craftsman. That has been lost in much of today's world--at least in the U.S.A.

Do you as designers find yourself in this predicament often? Where you're not happy with either the artistic or technical aspect of what you've done, but the client thinks it's great? How do you reconcile this within yourself? Is the income more important than the personal pride in your work? Is it a hard and fast rule, or is it a sliding scale based upon putting bread on the table and roof over your head?

In reading many of your posts, I since a great pride in your work. Not as in egotisticle, but as in a healthy self-confidence. For what it's worth, I think it's great that that feeling still exists out there today. Wish it could be found in other industries.

[SurfPark]

Its the same arguement someone might pose against eating at McDonald's everyday..."Its food and I'm hungry."

This kind of thinking is shortcutting yourself. It may get you through a job or two, but overall its going to ruin your reputation.

[DesignStudio]

This is a very interesting question, I agree. The short answer is that I believe you're right, that we're getting further and further away from the type of principles and mainly for two reasons. The first is that we can get away with it, the second is that it is unfortunately sometimes neccessary. I can remember growing up my dad sometimes repeating the words, "My principles above all else." These words were something of a montra for my father, and something I always admired him for, because he really lives by it. He dropped out of med school top of his class, one semester short of graduation because he couldn't reconcile the medical profession with his personal values, and he realized that it just wasn't what he believed was his calling. He couldn't imagine closing his doors at 5:00 when there were still sick people needing to see him, and balancing that with a fair commitment to his family. Instead he became a carpenter and as far as I know he never looked back. I've never met anyone with a greater commitment to his values regardless of the consequences than my father, but he has struggled financially his whole life.

I have a cousin who lives near me in the Bay area, he has the utmost artistic integrity and refuses to compromise his craftsmanship for any reason including sales or marketing. He can't afford to pay his bills, rent, get groceries, etc as a result.

Simply put, you can't eat or pay your bills with artistic integrity. We all have clients who demand something that we know is less than our best work and refuse to compromise or listen to wiser advice. The options are to tell the client to look elsewhere, or simply provide the service as they request it which will satisfy the customer, and walk away knowing you did all you could.

The middle ground I've found to satisfy my own principles and still pay my bills is to look at graphic design as a service industry and not as a craft. If you value your artistic integrity above all else, then I think a career in graphic design is not for you. I give 100% effort and refuse to do anything but my very best toward customer satisfaction. If this means giving the customer something that I don't personally like, then that's what I'll do. Of course this also includes offering advice and guidance to the best of my ability, but those clients who refuse to accept any direction are still entitled to be provided with my service in a way that satisfies them.

[simplicity]

This past week Chip Kidd came to my school and gave a lecture and did a book signing at a local bookstore. It was an incredible experience and i feel very lucky to have oppurtunitites to be able to listen and learn from designers like him. Anyways, during his lecture he expressed that many times when he is designing a book cover/jacket or whatever it maybe, he will have a concept and if it isn't excepted that will be the end of it, but other times he will have multiple concepts and give it another go. I realize that being Chip Kidd he is able to say that was my shot and it didn't work I'm not going to do something I don't like and move onto the next job, however for many people this probably isn't the case. One thing that I took from this is that doing something that you're not proud of or don't feel is acceptable then don't do it. I'm still in school and when I find a job or work on my own I hope I'm able to do this, but I also think that for most people this won't always be the case.

[urstwile]

This is a tricky industry to assign the value of quality to something that in the end rests on a subjective decision. Ultimately, I think the decision maker in that process is the client.

I think it's quite possible for a designer to be dissatisfied with the choice that their client makes regarding a design, but whether that's a quality/craftsmanship issue or a matter of taste seems like two different things to me. Is it important for the designer to give the client the best possible quality work that they can, given the scenario? Yes. Is the designer providing something of poor quality if the client overrides their design choices? Maybe in the designer's mind that's what's happening, but it's not quite the same thing as building a cabinet or a guitar.

[hewligan]

Pure art is something I do on my own time. In it, there is nothing but my own skills, abilities, knowledge and opinions. It communicates something that is me.

When I'm working, it's something different. When I'm working, I'm using those skills, abilities and knowledge to achiev someone else's communication goals. I'm producing something that represents them. If what I have procduced is something that they don't feel represents them, then I have failed. Ultimately, I can advise them on how best to communicate the message they intend, and I certainly believe I have the knowledge to give them useful advice, but if they are not happy with the way I try to communicate it, then it's not the right solution.

There is a very real difference between the pure arts an commercial art, of which graphic design is an example. I certainly don;t wan to suggest that one is either better or worse than the other. But in commercial art, the goal is to communicate someone else's message, not only in a way that is effective, but in a way that they are happy with. Personally, I find that a more interesting challenge, but it's certainly not for everyone.

[Optimusdinkus]

Design for yourself if it sells, design for someone else if you want to provide a service, plan and damn simple. Some designers are out on their own brigade of greatness, however, VERY far and few between, and even then it doesnt last forever.

You think Paul Rand ended up giving IBM their logo and they said "GOLLY GOSH, HERES A MILLION, WE LOVE IT!" no they didn't, and let me tell ya, he had to SELL it to them some how. Same with apple, even if his reputation exists, he still HAD to possition, empathize, and sell.

Still, I have found out quickly that I would take minimum wage at a job that I loved from its content and admiration and had people (clients inclusive) that I did work for that was wonderfull, but real life expenses = the burden that comes after college and everything else.

[budafist]

I don't see my commercial design work as art. It's about designing a solution for a client's problem. If they are happy with the solution, then that is what it is about.

Sure, it makes me feel warm and happy when the solution happens to be a beautiful design that is portfolio worthy. But making your portfolio is not on your client's agenda.

I'm a creative person though and I do like to do wildly creative things in my spare time.

[PrintDriver]

I've seen designers who are able to communicate their concept to a client in a way that the client accepts the idea as their own, even if it wasn't the concept they started out with. What is design other than a communication art at its finest?.
:p
Seriously though, this type of designer is few and far between.
A designer, in most cases, is out to improve the clients' bottom line. If a designer cannot communicate to a client why his idea will do this, then maybe it is the wrong idea.

[romancing_layouts]

I don't see my commercial design work as art. It's about designing a solution for a client's problem. If they are happy with the solution, then that is what it is about.

Sure, it makes me feel warm and happy when the solution happens to be a beautiful design that is portfolio worthy. But making your portfolio is not on your client's agenda.

I'm a creative person though and I do like to do wildly creative things in my spare time.
Well said, it's a job... master your craft on your own time, the client is not paying you for you to excercise your principles.

Put yourself in thier shoes; if/when you get a tattoo you may consider the suggestions of the artist but you are the one who has to live with the final result. Clients money=clients call, not yours.

Someone who is limited in funds should take any and all jobs offered to them. Got to get paid.
My solution to working for clients with bad taste is simply this: DONT PUT YOUR NAME ON IT. If you don't like it, don't put it in your portfolio.

If no impression is made no one will care who designed it.

The concept of being a graphic designer is not the reality, unless you are an art director or project manager your artistic freedom is very limited, the majority of your work will be to realize the visions of others. Being apt to this is a great graphic designer's virtue within itself.

[redneckrodney]

In my humble and inexperienced opinion, the design field (like most any other field) is first and foremost a service industry. As designers, our job is to communicate something visually for a client. Somewhat of an oversimplification, but if I worked at McDonalds and someone ordered a fish sandwich, my job is not to sell them up to a hamburger, it's to serve them the best fish sandwich available. Doesn't this hold true in the design field also? If a client wants (shudder) comic sans, and they won't budge, then shouldn't we present the best design incorporating comic sans that we can? Sometimes you have to remember that most any software or desktop publishing can "do what designers do", the difference, we can offer much more experience talent, and advice than a $19.95 software program can. Isn't that the point?

[urstwile]

Sometimes you have to remember that most any software or desktop publishing can "do what designers do", the difference, we can offer much more experience talent, and advice than a $19.95 software program can. Isn't that the point?
Where are you buying your software? :p

[redneckrodney]

Why, Wal-Mart of course. Isn't that where all the people who don't need designers get their software?

[garricks]

And here I thought they just got it from all that e-mail in their inboxes...just like they get their Viagra! :p

[redneckrodney]

Heck no, you have to look for the really good s^&t, in between fruit of the loom boxers and old spice. Clean up on aisle 8!

[romancing_layouts]

dosnt windows still come with paintbrush?

[morea]

"...but if your client is happy with it and paid you, I guess it doesn't really matter"

I pulled this off a post on another thread, mainly because it intrigued me. Immensely. At one time, the quality of a person's work was the most important thing because of the direct reflection of the craftsman. That has been lost in much of today's world--at least in the U.S.A.

Do you as designers find yourself in this predicament often? Where you're not happy with either the artistic or technical aspect of what you've done, but the client thinks it's great? How do you reconcile this within yourself? Is the income more important than the personal pride in your work? Is it a hard and fast rule, or is it a sliding scale based upon putting bread on the table and roof over your head?

In reading many of your posts, I since a great pride in your work. Not as in egotisticle, but as in a healthy self-confidence. For what it's worth, I think it's great that that feeling still exists out there today. Wish it could be found in other industries.

I have heard that statement used as a sort of a consolation between designers who had an amazing idea shot down because it just "wasn't what the client was looking for". Instead, the client insisted on a starburst, substituted dollar signs for each "S" in the headline, used comic sans, and demanded a hideous color scheme... and the designer had to do it to accommodate the client. What's the alternative, to break the contract and tell the client to go find someone else to do the job because you don't like their art direction?

What if you're working as an in house designer and your design-challenged boss insists upon something that you know is bad design? Do you resign then and there, or do you refuse on principle and wait for him to fire you? I was in a situation like that before, after one of countless conversations to try to explain to him why his suggestion was not the best approach, he actually slammed his hand down on my desk and yelled at me, "you'll just do it because I said so, and I am your boss!

As Rodney said, ours is a service industry, and we have to satisfy a client's needs first and foremost. While we might occasionally make a comment like the one you pointed out, it's more often to try write off a bad situation, not an excuse to do sub-par work.

A big part of the problem in my opinion is that people don't understand what we do, and don't view us as trained professionals. We're normally viewed by the uninitiated as no more than "button pushers". They think that anyone with a computer can call themselves a graphic designer - and that does happen all too often. If more clients (or bosses) respected us as professionals and trusted us to do the job that they hired us for, you would see a lot of better design work out there.

I really don't think it's fair to suggest that designers are "selling out" because we have to turn out what our clients want and then occasionally commiserate with one another after the fact. You do the best you can under the circumstances, and you save the "good" design that the client rejected for your portfolio.

As hewligan said, I create "art" on my own time. We don't always have the luxury of doing things our way when it comes to work for hire. Being a designer is more about providing a service than it is about satisfying your artistic impulses.

[redneckrodney]

Mo,
That is pretty much what I was trying to say in the first place. You just said it in a wonderully eloquent fashion. My Granpa once told me "the boss ain't always right, but he's always the boss", and I really believe that is true. If we want to do art, or incredibly insightful and thoughtful design, that's great. If the client buys in on that idea then it's damn near a perfect world. If not, then we make comic sans and starbursts and overdone radial gradients work for them, because that's our job, and we should do it to the best of our ability.

[morea]

^ that's it, in a nutshell.


and thanks, Rodney. ;)

[redneckrodney]

Morea,
By the way (and I know this is off topic), but.....
If it's possible (because I know I have the least knowledge and skills of anyone on this forum), I would like to have a potted meat party for my one hundredth post. It would be wonderful if you, Urst, RKK, and Buda would host it for me. Just something to think about....

[reuber1]

You know, I never, never, never, never, never used a starburst design once in any of my designs; not for college, not for personal projects, not for anybody. That is, not until two weeks ago when a client requested two of them in a small classified ad space. They don't know jack, but they pay. I'll be exercising my creativity in my own time however, to balance my sanity levels.

[garricks]

What if you're working as an in house designer and your design-challenged boss insists upon something that you know is bad design? Do you resign then and there, or do you refuse on principle and wait for him to fire you? I was in a situation like that before, after one of countless conversations to try to explain to him why his suggestion was not the best approach, he actually slammed his hand down on my desk and yelled at me, "you'll just do it because I said so, and I am your boss! I just had this happen too. Some people in positions high enough to give me nosebleed made a decision about how a logo should be reversed in one particular execution. It's wrong by any design standards, and I talked myself Pantone 293 in the face to no avail. I didn't get yelled at, but it was made perfectly clear to me that my opinion was no longer needed in this matter.

*shrug*

As far as my reputation goes, my name ain't Saatchi, and you wouldn't recognize it. I'm in my cube, makin' the mortgage payment and the grocery bill. I'm sometimes micromanaged into turning out crap, but there are other clients that trust my work and let me do my thing (within corporate standards, that is). THOSE clients have made me an award-winning graphic designer according to some professional organizations.

But at the end of the day, Rodney's Granpa is right. And I don't lose any sleep over it.

I'm thinking of trying papier-mâché this summer as a creative outlet.

[romancing_layouts]

I love it! New artists should take this as an eye opener. I think that if more people were aware of this fact, the industry would be made up of a much stronger/talented/serious work force... maybe we should make a proactive movement and manifest an online marketing strategy to get this message out. Perhaps call it the 'F-OFF POSERS!' or 'GET OFF MY CLOUD!' or 'ARTIST/HACK' campaign?... what a dumb idea, nevermind.

I've been awake too long, I think... my brain is mush... i'll post anyway

[artistsdad]

Interesting replies. Pretty consistent as to the reality of making a living. You do what you need to to satisfy the client, then tend to your own sanity needs on your own time. I was just curious as to how often you had to balance your technical/artistic ability with the client's desires. Is this gap something that you attempt to bridge by "educating" the client as to the need to do it "right", or do you just go with the flo to complete the job?

"The boss ain't always right, but he's always the boss". Rodney, that seems to run through every industry I've been involved in. Guess some things really are universal. What I've always wondered is how all those people became the "boss"es...

Off topic--what the heck is "potted meat"? Was the cow drunk when he ws offed? I've come across that term a couple of times lately on the forum. Never heard it before.

[redneckrodney]

Garricks,
You'll never know what that means to me (or what it would have meant to my Granpa), but, simple fact is he was a very simple, down to earth, intelligent man. He knew "where the land layed", and he absolutely knew how to deal with those facts. Lesson learned...

[redneckrodney]

BTW artistsdad,
Potted meat is the food of the Gods. Basically, I think it is lips, armpits, and assh*&les of cows and chickens (maybe with gophers and hamsters thrown in), but by golly it tastes good on a Saltine!!!;)

[garricks]

Garricks,
You'll never know what that means to me (or what it would have meant to my Granpa), but, simple fact is he was a very simple, down to earth, intelligent man. He knew "where the land layed", and he absolutely knew how to deal with those facts. Lesson learned... Rodney, when I was in my very early 20s, I was a clerk that worked the overnight shift. The evening shift always left me mountains of paperwork to do, and one night I snapped. The next morning I walked into my boss' office and went on an epic rant. I actually said "I don't have to put up with this!"

Mike, great manager that he was, let me vent. When I finally wound down and stopped roiling at him, he leaned back in his chair and said, "Well, I hate to lose you, but I hope you're very happy in your next job."

:eek:

That stopped me cold. As you said, lesson learned. Those few, simple words were like ice water over my head. Mike and I laughed about that confrontation many times over the next years as I continued to humbly work for him. :)

Your Granpa was a wise man.

artists dad, potted meat is known in the US as Deviled Ham, Beef and Chicken. I suppose it would also include SPAM (the meat, not the e-mail!). Also known as tinned meat. More info from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potted_meat).

[redneckrodney]

Garricks,
You rock! I hate to say something that cheesy, but you do. Granpa is lookinig down smiling at us, thinking why didn't you listen sooner. God I miss him...

[Optimusdinkus]

What I've always wondered is how all those people became the "boss"es...
It's simple, they had money, and said "I want to spend it" only in mass quantities, in the hopes that more comes out of it..... Capitolism rewards things like this, from mal practice to destructive outputs we live in it, breath it, and until something better comes along (hopefully due to the peoples voice, the internet) we will be rewarded for what we are, not what are told to do for whomever the jack ass is with the cash. But maybe Im just bein silly

[budafist]

You know, I never, never, never, never, never used a starburst design once in any of my designs; not for college, not for personal projects, not for anybody. That is, not until two weeks ago when a client requested two of them in a small classified ad space. They don't know jack, but they pay. I'll be exercising my creativity in my own time however, to balance my sanity levels.

I have used starbursts on request so many times I stopped counting. Starbursts are not part of great design, but they are part of advertising. Since they are a part of advertising, clients see it and demand it.

I suppose one of the things about doing work that is more client art directed than we would like is something that may never go away. Which is another reason why we don't critique other people's work on here (work that is not created by the poster). Sure, we quickly critique a hideous piece when we walk/flick past it. But we don't know the circumstances of that piece. We don't know if comic sans was used because the designer thought it was the best font to use, or because a client wouldn't budge.

[morea]

I was just curious as to how often you had to balance your technical/artistic ability with the client's desires.

That's the very nature of what we do. The client is the boss, and satisfying the client is always the goal. Some do occasionally give you free rein with a project, but a lot more often they already have an idea of what they want and how they want it executed when they hire you.


Is this gap something that you attempt to bridge by "educating" the client as to the need to do it "right", or do you just go with the flo to complete the job?

I always start a project by learning as much as I can about the client, his industry, his customers, and his goals. Then we discuss the project at hand, and how to approach it.

If the client's solution sounds like bad "design" (as in the examples given above) I always make an effort to explain why it would be to their advantage to avoid certain design clichés, etc.

Some clients are very receptive and thank me for taking the time to explain things; these are the ones who recognize that a designer is a trained professional and they appreciate our expertise.

Others will stick to their guns, because they know what they want and they only need someone to actually build the design for them. This is more "production work" than anything, and there's nothing wrong with it - it pays the bills, even if it does occasionally offend our artistic sensibilities. ;)

I don't turn clients away for asking for "bad" design, and I don't turn them away for disagreeing with me. I will, however, turn them away if they insist on anything illegal (like copying someone else's design, or using images (etc.) that they don't have rights to, to name a few). I try to educate those clients, too, but if they insist that I proceed, I will cancel the project.

[Riefnu]

I have used starbursts on request so many times I stopped counting. Starbursts are not part of great design, but they are part of advertising. Since they are a part of advertising, clients see it and demand it.

I suppose one of the things about doing work that is more client art directed than we would like is something that may never go away. Which is another reason why we don't critique other people's work on here (work that is not created by the poster). Sure, we quickly critique a hideous piece when we walk/flick past it. But we don't know the circumstances of that piece. We don't know if comic sans was used because the designer thought it was the best font to use, or because a client wouldn't budge.


If I see something badly designed out in the world I never think of it as "What a bad designer" . I think "what a bad design". However, and this might shock to some of you so please no 911 calls, I can see the point to using starbursts. The client isn;t a designer so they think starbursts are nifty to have. Chances are the clients of the client also arn't designers, so they to feel that starbursts look spiffy in that design. Third, your next client might not be a designer either and think seeing a starburst in THEIR work would be nice, and if they are a designer then hopefully they know why there is a starburst with your name tucked away on it somewhere.

[Yossarian]

...a starburst with your name tucked away on it somewhere.
I don't think this is exactly how you intended it but I'm amused by the idea of "a starburst out there with my name on it." Like the bullet with my/your name on it saying. That starburst is out there..... and some day.... BAM there it is, sticking one of its hideous points in the eye of my creative vision.

For the discussion at hand, I have to concur with others. I put my integrity in doing the best possible job within the limitations of the project. Those limitations may be time, budget, or someone with hopelessly bad design taste calling the shots. One way or another it will be on time and I'll have tried my best to make a successful design, and please and educate the client along the way.

[Riefnu]

I think the only "problem" with starbursts is their near lack of editablity (I think I just made a new word!).

You're kind of stuck with what they give you. Placement, size, direction.

Wham, bam, thank you mam'.

[budafist]

Those limitations may be time, budget, or someone with hopelessly bad design taste calling the shots.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about time and budget constraints!