first website, dreamweaver

[mastera]

Hi guys. Want some opinions here.

Creating my first website. Got my idea of how it should look aesthetically. Trouble is, I don't have a clue about Website design and not nearly clued up enough to know what's in and what's not.

Firstly I'm using dreamweaver.

The site is a portfolio site with the simple Intro contacts and portfolio pages. Nothing too extraordinary.

But my question is how should I create this website? Tables?, templates?, Frames? I'm a lil lost and I don't wana go finishing up this website of mine, then to find out that tables are "not the proffessional's choice" for example.

A lil guidance would be cool.
Thank you in advance,

Andrew

[shalom_m]

The be all and end all of any website is content.
A close second is presentation.
From what you posted, you have no problem with the above.
The next point to consider is SEO - How friendly is your site to search-engines.
SEO rules out any site with frames, and to a lesser extent tables.
Another important point in a commercial website is trustworthiness and credibility.
This would rule out imported templates (you want to show your own work).
So without frames, tables and templates; my friend you are stuck with HTML and CSS.


So wird nach G. W. F. Hegel eine umfassende Darstellung der Dialektik und ihre allgemeine Gesetze in das Design-Geschäft gebracht!

[SurfPark]

HTML and CSS are the standards today. Dreamweaver can do these, but you'll need to understand how to use them. Here are things you do not want to use:

Flash. Designing an all-Flash site is a no-no. Sure, it looks cool but it creates a challenge for disabled users and for anyone working on an older computer. Bad form.
Frames. These are a relic of the 90s. No serious business uses these anymore. Just no.
Tables. Also a 90s relic, tables had their place. While they are much quicker to design with than CSS, they are very limited on placement. If you haven't mastered these yet, skip them and go right to CSS.There is really no way to future-proof your web site other than complying with web stanards. This means you'll need to use proper markup and be consistent with your code. Make sure you do a HTML/CSS validation before you publish too.

[romancing_layouts]

The standard is quickly becoming CSS, yes but I would suggest that you stay within languages that you understand, if the site does not work or look proper it will reflect badly on you as a designer.

Truth be told, the programming is the easy part and can/should be refined regularily. Solidify your design before even starting.

"1 hour of thinking without working is worth 4 hours of working without thinking"

Someone once said: "the sooner you start coding, the longer it will take you to finish." This makes a lot of sense. If you know from the outset what your fundamental design is and the basic content of each page, you will spend less time going back and "fixing things" since the basic structure will already have been determined.

As for search engine optimization(SEO), it is not a large factor for you as a new/small designer, chances are that the majority of your visitors will see your site due to your own marketing, not them finding you in a search engine.

Good luck!

[romancing_layouts]

These are the facts... 90s relics?


CSS History Lesson:



On June 10, 1993, Robert Raisch of O’Reilly & Associates posted a proposal named Stylesheets for HTML (http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/WWW-TALK/www-talk-1993q2.messages/443.html).

Pei-Yuan Wei (http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/%7Ewei/), author of the ViolaWWW (http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/%7Ewei/viola/violaIntro.html) — famed for being the browser that introduced the concept of applets, three years before the inception of Java — posted his own stylesheet proposal (http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/WWW-TALK/www-talk-1993q4.messages/263.html) on October 22, 1993.

On October 10, 1994, Håkon Wium Lie released his very first draft (http://www.w3.org/People/howcome/p/cascade.html) of what was to become CSS.


The most important concept introduced in Håkon’s proposal is the cascade (http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/cascade.html#cascade) — the concept of interaction and prioritization between an author stylesheet, user stylesheet, and finally a User Agent (browser) stylesheet.

On November 18, 1994 (This date is somewhat uncertain, but taken from the referring document), Joe English posted an alternative proposal, using an SGML-based syntax



Only four months prior to CSS1 becoming a W3C recommendation, Netscape proposed JavaScript-Based Style Sheets (http://www.w3.org/Submission/1996/1/WD-jsss-960822.html) — JSSS for short — to the W3C. It’s syntax was, as anybody should guess, a JavaScript-based syntax for embedding styles. JSSS had all the inclusion mechanisms known to CSS. JSSS was implemented in Netscape 4, and died silently without having had any significant use.

Links and References


Cascading Style Sheets, designing for the Web (http://www.w3.org/Style/LieBos2e/history/) — Chapter 20, “The CSS Saga”.
Wikipedia: Cascading Style Sheets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_Style_Sheets)
Cascading HTML style sheets — a proposal (http://www.w3.org/People/howcome/p/cascade.html)
Rob Raisch: Request for Comments: STYLESHEETS (http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/WWW-TALK/www-talk-1993q2.messages/443.html) —www-talk list message
Pei Wei: Stylesheet Language (http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/WWW-TALK/www-talk-1993q4.messages/263.html) — www-talk list message
Cascading Style Sheets, Level 1, Appendix A (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1-961217.html#acknowledgments) — acknowledgements from the original revision
Arena 0.97 (http://www.w3.org/Arena/0.97.html) — Arena was the first browser with some support for what was later to become CSS.
JavaScript-Based StyleSheets (http://www.w3.org/Submission/1996/1/WD-jsss-960822.html) — JSSS was Netscape’s take on how stylesheets could/should be done. In addition to these links, the six drafts for the CSS1 specification could be of some interest:

CSS1 draft 1 (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/draft1.html)
CSS1 draft 2 (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/draft2.html)
CSS1 draft 3 (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/draft3.html)
CSS1 draft 4 (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/draft4.html)
CSS1 draft 5 (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/draft5.html)
CSS1 draft 6 (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/draft6.html) Note that while I use the term “draft”, these documents are not working drafts in the normal W3C sense.

[mastera]

Those answers are awesome guys. Thanks very muchio indeed.
You've helped me alot. This Forum rocks for great knowledge.

Enjoy your Sunday :)

[tZ]

I don't think its right to disregard to flash. 80% of all users have flash. Therefore, before you make a choice to use it you must consider your audience. For example, I think flash is perfectly acceptable for a design portfolio were the audience is probably going to have flash. It all depends on the demographic.


Truth be told, the programming is the easy part and can/should be refined regularily. Solidify your design before even starting.


based on what evidence? I'm sure many would agree to the opposing argument.

[Danger_Mouse]

Truth be told, the programming is the easy part and can/should be refined regularily. Solidify your design before even starting.
Sounds like thats coming from a coder, not a designer. ha!

From what I understand using Flash entirely for your site isn't great for SEO (meaning your practically invisible to google searchs), so unless you already have a successful brand (like Nike) I would use Flash to accent the site and not the site entirely(unless you dont care about SEO -search engine optimization. But I am sure avid FLASH users would say otherwise.

[zach-e2]

here's probably one of the best sites on the net and it doesn't have any dedicated images in the design
www.joshuablankenship.com

a couple of others of good note (with images):
http://www.nopattern.com/nopattern/
www.electricheat.org

use graphics only when you absolutely need to.

also, keep in mind that if you do want to use graphics, then make sure that the design of the site is kept as clean as possible..
for some great examples, visit cssremix.com and faveup.com

word.
z

[mastera]

those websites Zach are awesome !! cheers

[DiWi]

You could also go to a local web design school (http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/%7Es_elizabeth_s/design-schools.html) and take a course. A friend of mine did that (I think they covered dreamweaver, Sorry, can't remember :)) and said it gave him a good start.

[romancing_layouts]

...I have many years of experience backing me up. Preparation is critical and your plan should detail every aspect of your design. A film director doesn't gather the key elements, stick the actors in front of the camera and then storyboard the film from there(with few exceptions). Same principle applies here.

Having a complete and clear vision will dramatically reduce the execution/coding time.

If you find the coding the difficult part, you probably need more education or should just stick to the graphics side. The technical side is not nearly as subjective as the artistic aspects of web design. This is just my opinion however it is a very common belief among most successful designers.

btw, I have been a designer and art director for 15+ years and have only recently started coding. I am currently being personally trained by Dr. Dale McIntosh, a pioneer of the web in his own right. I'm not just making it up as I go(like some seem to be, in this forum).

[cnic]

Flash. Designing an all-Flash site is a no-no. Sure, it looks cool but it creates a challenge for disabled users and for anyone working on an older computer. Bad form.
Bad form? I'm gonna try not to take offence to that. Personally I love flash, and rely no flash daily to keep me employed. Designing an all-flash site is a no-no??? Tell that to everyone at the FWA (http://www.thefwa.com), or to the peeps at Dope Awards (http://www.dopeawards.com).

I don't think its right to disregard to flash. 80% of all users have flash. Therefore, before you make a choice to use it you must consider your audience. For example, I think flash is perfectly acceptable for a design portfolio were the audience is probably going to have flash. It all depends on the demographic.
I couldn't agree MORE! There are tons of people out there abusing flash. But used correctly it is an extreamly powerful tool.

That said, I also love CSS. I suggest checking out CSS vault (http://www.cssvault.com) for some great examples of CSS work. When you decide what type of site you want to build and whom you want to reach with it.... go and learn how to use the tools required to reach that goal.

People that automatically put down one program or the next have closed thier eyes to what could potentially bring them growth, and thier portfolio depth.

Need an example of good flash... just ask me.

[shalom_m]

Flash as an enhancement is fine.
You can do great things with flash.
Flash as a replacement of CSS/HTML - well if you want to pay the SEO price???
After showing my clients what the web presence price of an overdose of Flash is going to be - all backed down.

cnic
I have taken a random sample of one of the sites: http://www.testyourbreath.ca/

Yes it is nice, funny - but:

1. It takes a year and a day to load
2. It's Google ranking is n/a
3. and when searching "test your breath" it comes up 6th.

[cnic]

Shalom_m

Try this, google "Scope"
Low and behold! You get www.getclose.com (http://www.getclose.com) (Scope's website)... and it's 100% Flash!

Try this, google "rareview"
Well what do you know! You get www.rareview.com (http://www.rareview.com)... and it's 100% Flash!

Try this, google "fwa"
Howdy Doody! You get www.thefwa.com (http://www.thefwa.com)... and it's 100% Flash!

1. It takes a year and a day to load It took only a few (6-8) seconds for it to load for me. Undoubtedly we will all see differing load times dependent on internet speed. It may certainly take longer to load... but what do you expect with and interactive, video filled site?

2. It's Google ranking is n/a. 3. and when searching "test your breath" it comes up 6th. I think this has already been answered... in this post and in others. If this is important to you... great!

After showing my clients what the web presence price of an overdose of Flash is going to be - all backed down. Thats where we differ. My clients want Flash and get it.

Again, this goes back to what tZ said. If you are trying to get people to notice you from a search engine... then you probably need SEO. If your clients are finding you as a direct referral... probably not.

I understand the point youre making... but I can't stand back and let someone say that Flash is a "no no". People that say that... IN MY OPINION... don't know how to use Flash, don't know what it can do, and / or they are scared of it replacing what they already know.

I just don't like it when people generalize Flash as a bad thing, when it's not. It's like the abused stepchild of the web that everyone assumes will become a bad egg and never get a job... just living under the support of Grandma CSS and Grandpa HTML. Ok, well, its abused anyway.
:rolleyes:

[romancing_layouts]

Cnic, well said. All technology has it's place, flash can offer extended interactivity and animation. Currently there is no other technology that can do this, with as much ease and proficiency. A busy digital artist would respect that.

[zach-e2]

You could also go to a local web design school (http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/%7Es_elizabeth_s/design-schools.html) and take a course. A friend of mine did that (I think they covered dreamweaver, Sorry, can't remember :)) and said it gave him a good start.

eh. no offense, but design schools teach you tools, but very rarely do they teach inspiration. you can get tools most of the time for free online, and inspiration is definitely free. so, save your mulah.

if you want to learn design and development,
watch this brief video:
http://invisiblecreature.blogspot.com/2008/01/i-never-had-formal-training-in-field.html

[MikeHun]

Noob question:
Q: Meta tags aren't embeded in flash sites?
Q: Css and flash don't play well, why not?

Obvious questions, but as a veteran print designer learning both,
I used to use Director for multimedia. Why isn't there there a way to
integrate CSS and Flash?

[cnic]

When deployed to a website... Flash and all of its goodness is contained within the Flash player. Thats not to say you cant use Flash elements within your CSS / HTML pages... you can! CSS within Flash however is a different story. Flash is a vector based interactive movie program. Seems weird when I say it that way that we use it for the web at all. Flash is not the best at rendering text and such. Furthermore, anything that is going to be displayed in Flash will be contained within the bounds of its "stage" (enter fullscreen flash). Flash can however render small amounts of HTML in dynamic text boxes, and you CAN actually control those areas with CSS code.

Hope that helps.

[MikeHun]

CNIC you are a wealth of knowledge!
I assume that meta tags are the problem then in a full flash site.
SEO's being the crux of the issue then don't apply to flash sites?