Hey, America, you awake?

[Broacher]

I don't exactly know why I'm writing this one. Maybe it's the fact that even as a Canadian I'm feeling over-saturated with the coverage of the nomination races going on down there. Maybe it's the gloom that's sinking the American economy and the predictable gloom shadow it has started to cast to the north here--and well, everywhere.

Maybe it's the realization that this is NOT the world we all envisioned with the Americans being the only world superpower. War. Fear--a sadly definitive loss of the innocence we were all living so comfortable living in.

But mostly because I feel the same kind of helplessness watching a good friend struggle with getting their family problems solved.

See, I think, like a lot of folks OUTSIDE of the good ol' U-S-of-A, I couldn't help but feel just the teensiest sense of pleasure when America, as a 'character' started to have real problems trying to get along with the rest of the world 'cast' when it insisted on solving every problem the 'American Way'.

Your hubris, arrogance-- it's something the rest of the world has grudgingly accepted for decades, and frankly, it was getting very tiresome. But I look at America today, and I don't think that about as much anymore.

Instead, I think of what this country has meant not just to me, but to the whole family of humanity when it comes to campaigning and nurturing those values that I DO find so noble and worthy of a great nation. Compassion, tolerance, equality-- freedom of expression--for all people.

If anyone ever did a creative/spiritual/intellectual/innovaton spreadsheet that covered the world for the last hundred years, America would most likely be off the chart in sheer quantity and quality of the great minds/ideas/art/music it has cultivated, nurtured, and in so many cases, given safe refuge to (and yeah, you've got more than your share of great Canadian brains down there, but we understand).

The thing is, America has been the modern world's Mecca for creativity. For without personal freedom, where is creativity? Where is success? Where is opportunity? Where can talent grow freely? Those simple, rhetorical questions have probably been asked by more would-be Americans than any other. And today we ask, where has that America gone?

I'm not sure how to end this. I'm just hoping that you Americans can find your way back to that vision, that glory that made you great. A new leader? That's a given. A new vision? Maybe. Or maybe a new leader who sees the absolute power of returning to a new understanding of an old, but damn powerful vision?

If you were my neighbour (and technically, you are), I would just say that I hope you work it out... and soon. You're too important to the rest of us who put spiritual and creative leadership in front of even economic leadership.

So here's hoping you bounce back. Return to the values that made you great in the first place. Not by living in fear, but in reveling and building the capacity to dream. I miss that old America. But I know it's still there. Somewhere. Hurry back. We miss you.


"The key to success is to focus our conscious mind on things we desire--not things we fear." --Brian Tracy

[Riya]

I miss it too Broacher.

America has fulfilled our manifest destiny. We have conquered the West. The vast herds of buffalo have been fenced in. Interstate highways stretch from sea to shining sea. We have pitted ourselves against mother nature and won. Some hubris is to be expected and even forgiven, I think.

What is unforgivable is that we have sat ourselves down to grow fat by destroying that which made us great in the first place. We have allowed the government to take the freedoms that our forefathers fought so hard for. We have given our children every advantage, leaving nothing for them to earn themselves, nothing for them to struggle and strive for, nothing to turn them into men and women.

Today's Americans will grow up, live and die as children, demanding that daddy government protect them and take care of them, gladly giving up more and more of their freedoms and more of there money in the name of safety.

There is still land available to homestead under the old laws. Live on it and make improvements for four years and it yours. But that land will remain unsettled. Why? There is no electricity. There is little water. That didn't stop our ancestors, but it is stopping today's Americans.


A new leader? Yes. A return to an old vision? Yes. But most of all it's going to take an new willingness to risk our plasma TV and luxury cars in order to fulfill that vision.

[Broacher]

"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea."

- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[Mynock]

You have to separate Americans and America's leaders Broacher. Sometimes they are close together and others not so much like know. Other people don't hate Americans they hate our leaders and the policy they impose. Americans are awake. Certain leaders have awoken us and not in a good way. There are new leaders coming in who have awoken us and treated like adults and for once we finally will have a diverse legitimate Presidential candidate. The country is energized. Things are going to change I can feel it. Names have been left out to protect the innocent and not so innocent.

[DesignVHL]

well said Mynock...pulled the words outta my mouth! :)

[Broacher]

What about the boomers? Are they, well... history?

More importantly, are they medical history? And if so, will that be the new divide--young Americans with their future dreams vs. old Americans and future medical bills? As Gary Larson would say, 'trouble brewing'.

[reuber1]

You have to separate Americans and America's leaders Broacher. Sometimes they are close together and others not so much like know. Other people don't hate Americans they hate our leaders and the policy they impose. Americans are awake. Certain leaders have awoken us and not in a good way. There are new leaders coming in who have awoken us and treated like adults and for once we finally will have a diverse legitimate Presidential candidate. The country is energized. Things are going to change I can feel it. Names have been left out to protect the innocent and not so innocent.
Amen.

[Mynock]

You've kind of nailed it there. For the revolution to reach full effect sadly enough we need to place some older generation or two in the dirt.

[The_Black_Knight]

So, which "old America" do you want to go back to?

How about the America were killing all of the natives and held people in slavery?

Oh, you don't want to go back that far? Okay.

How about the America that had Prohibition?

Oh, you don't think that's so great, either.

How about the America that blacklisted Communist sympathisers, and had segregation laws?

Not that, either, huh?

How about the America that had a draft and sent people to Vietnam to fight Communism, while some other people had a concert in a field, where they thought they could solve all of the world's problems by smoking weed?

No?

How about the America that had a president that all of Europe thought would start a nuclear war with his cowboy diplomacy?

Really?

Okay, how about the America that just ignored terrorists, even when they were blowing up things in our own country?

Hmmm. Guess not.

I guess I'm sort of fuzzy on this concept. Exactly which America do you want to get back to?

[Broacher]

^ Excellent point. Nostalgia is a selectively optimistic process. History, on the other hand, is so nasty that people prefer the Hollywood versions almost all the time. But what if historical mistakes are caused by poorly understanding or appreciating what history can teach us?

You might argue that every one of those episodes is caused by losing sight of the meaning of the true values. And the problem with sticking to true human values is that there really are few humans willing or capable of accepting the truth. And the truth is, every politician understands that all too well.

[Mynock]

Nicely put TBK. It's very important to note that things aren't always as great as things are perceived. We all have are skeletons in our closet and it's important to know where you've been to see where you're going. We're not a perfect union, but we're striving for a more perfect union. Hey Broacher! These colors don't run! Go U-S-A!

[The_Black_Knight]

I'm also wondering who everyone will blame for all of our problems once the current president is out of office, particularly if he's replaced by someone from the other party. I guess they'll just go back to blaming Rush Limbaugh for being the source of all that is wrong with America, rather than look at themselves and try to improve their own lives.

[Kool]

On a positive note. Our founding fathers set this country up so that no single administration could do too much damage. This current administration has certainly pushed the envelope but even they haven't damaged us beyond the point where we can recover.

It's fashionable on the world stage at the moment to hate America. But among the free world, when the chips are down, when your country is devastated by man made or natural disaster the first country to come to your aid will be the US.

[Mynock]

There is more blame to go around, but as the head of the state it firmly lands on his shoulders. There are obviously other minds involved.

[Riya]

I guess they'll just go back to blaming Rush Limbaugh for being the source of all that is wrong with America, rather than look at themselves and try to improve their own lives.

That's it right there. There is always someone else to blame. No one wants to take responsiblity for thier own future.

[jimking]

Having been born and raised in the nation's capital and from a military family that reaches back to the American Civil war, fighting on both sides, I've learned a couple of things. Americans are afraid of their government and have been for years and for good reason. In contrast, it's the opposite in France, as an example, where their Government is afraid of it's people and for good reason, rolling heads come to mind. The US government is run by big business and think tanks and our representatives are representing them not the middle class. I was born in DC in 1957 and I've seen this town more than triple in size and power, and the big changes occurred soon after the Soviet Union collapsed. The US moved on to a new mission under Bush Sr. My belief is the middle class is being squeezed like no other time in our history. Pure capitalist outsourcing, open borders, huge CEO profits, some as high as 1 billion dollars, stagnate wages that in many sectors have dropped lower now than in 1980. The largest prison population in the world! It's the big squeeze and in order for the US to pull itself up by its bootstraps the people need to be represented, not corporations and think tanks. We need a third party to break through.
If you have time check out this link. It's a little long but you'll get an idea of what it was like for a family of 4 back in 1970 compared to now. Very interesting, I recommend it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A

[Mynock]

Ugh, don't get me started on the distribution of wealth.

[jimking]

Ugh, don't get me started on the distribution of wealth.
It has nothing to do about the distribution of wealth.

[Red Kittie Kat]

I'm also wondering who everyone will blame for all of our problems once the current president is out of office, particularly if he's replaced by someone from the other party.

Michael Moore will be out of a job

[Broacher]

It's a very good point you bring up about responsibility. The position of the line between individual rights and social responsibilities is a great gauge for the health of any society.

I've taken on a graphic charity case lately for a group that is trying to promote and encourage community volunteerism. Much of what is hurting social progress can be seen in the way people respond to the call for volunteering. Those who complain loudest and demand attention to their individual needs tend to be the least bit interested in pitching in and helping to solve the problems. And the volunteer generational gap is very deep and deepening. Many of the 'career' volunteers are too old or just no longer with us, and there just isn't that middle aged group coming up behind them as successors. And those that do try and help are commonly overwhelmed both by the workload -- and probably just as common, the politics of some of the 'old guard' super-volunteers, many of which have become so obsessed with the cause that they're half-nuts and unbalanced. Not exactly inviting.

As some famous president once said, "Ask not... "

[John G]

somebody else will make it better for us.
/lament

[urstwile]

Instead, I think of what this country has meant not just to me, but to the whole family of humanity when it comes to campaigning and nurturing those values that I DO find so noble and worthy of a great nation. Compassion, tolerance, equality-- freedom of expression--for all people.


As the child of an immigrant to this country shortly post World War II (my mother came here from Belgium, I was born here), I learned, early on, that this was always much more of an idea and an ideal than it was an actual reality. She'll be the first person to tell you so, if you ask.

As to America being hated on the world stage, I'd agree with Mynock, and say that it's our leaders who are hated, not Americans, for the most part. My mom, who currently lives in Belgium once again (she can't afford health care here), is constantly asked "what's going on with your Americans?". Those questions are directed at our leaders, not at our people.

Riya, I'd have to disagree with you on us pitting ourselves against nature and winning. Hurricane Katrina was ample evidence that that's not the case. We can only do our best to survive the onslaughts and therein lies part of the hubris of the American way, thinking that we could be arrogant enough to get over on natural forces. What exactly is wrong with us that we think we need to dominate nature, rather than live within it?

There is much to be argued against in this thread, I suppose. The fact that so many feel that people who take aid from the government are at the same time dependent on the government, and would fail without it, are, in my opinion, simply hearing the drum beat of the media, about welfare moms and social aid programs being the bane of independence.

I prefer Martin Luther King Jr.'s assessment, which I am probably misquoting to a certain extent, but this is just from memory: "It's a fine thing to tell a man to pull himself up by his bootstraps, but it's a cruel thing to say that to someone who has no boots."

[captain spanky]

i hate the america that wiped out the passenger pigeon.
to that america, i'd like to say, see you next tuesday.

[Mynock]

It has nothing to do about the distribution of wealth.That video talks about distribution of wealth and how are nice bell curve is going to flatten out.

[jimking]

That video talks about distribution of wealth and how are nice bell curve is going to flatten out.
Damn, are we seeing the same video? I'm not getting that at all from my link. What I'm seeing is the difference in the middle class, now, as far as a family of four's expenditures compared to 1970 using US government statistics. Where is the bell curve coming from?

[Mynock]

Towards the begining of the end or the end of the middle. Talks about there only be two classes; Rich and poor. Did you watch the whole thing?

[Broacher]

Don't think the middle class erosion problem is exclusive to the U.S. It's everywhere in the industrialized world.

Don't know if anyone else here has heard of a Canadian writer/urban planning visionary named Jane Jacobs? Actually, she's American born, but spent most of her adult life living in Toronto writing books: 'The Death and Life of Great American Cities', 'Cities and the Wealth of Nations' and 'Systems of Survival'.

When we talk about historical lessons I think you have to be willing to sometimes pull out the big telescopes. The rise and fall of great civilizations of the past can certainly tell us a thing or two. The rapid expansion of cities and their connection with the use--and overuse--of natural resources. The rise of intellectualism and it's connection to technological advances.

In one of her last books (she died last year), 'Dark Age Ahead' Jacobs uncharacteristically reveals her less optimistic side as a prophetess. A couple of things which struck me particularly hard was her condemnation of the industrialization of the college/university system in America (and in a monkey-see way, it's effect on other countries, including Canada). And also the rise of the anti-intellectual movement-- something which America, ironically, has been simmering around since it's inception.

But I tend to be more optimistic about America's future. Even from my outside vantage point I see many signs that things really are moving, in a very deep, very grassroots way, across the political grassroot spectrum. Maybe America isn't awake yet, but I sense that maybe Americans are.

What I do hope for is the emergence of an America that is mature enough look at its history, its faults and failures, glories and successes--and reconnect with the world as a leader--not just in military and economic might, but as the best example of how democracy, despite all its faults--can still work, and work well... for its people. NOT just its marketeers.

I live just an hour and a half drive away from Buffalo NY. I have for most of my life now. We get a lot of American tourists in the summer of course. And (at least before the stricter border security and the cost of gas) we would make the occasional trip cross-river for day trips etc ourselves.

The reason I say this is because somebody upthread mentioned that it isn't so much anti-Americanism as it is anti-American-leadership that has grown to historical highs in the last few years. What I'm dismayed to report, at least in our little area, is that it doesn't take much for people to blend the two. I have heard stories from my son (not in high school yet) about new kids moving into their school area from the states being teased and socially isolated -- not for any detectable language or visible difference-- but for the mere fact that they are American. I was appalled! When I checked it out and found evidence this was true, I made calls to the teachers and principal to make them aware of the situation and some actions were taken.

But it was a grim reminder to me how quickly unfounded prejudices can emerge from any group that includes a newcomer. And how strong and quickly hate can breed from the flimsiest of reasons-- and how thin the veneer of civility can be when ignorance, the quickest path is left unchecked.

I don't know what the real answer is, does anyone? But I think in the worst of circumstances, the best we can sometimes do is to make sure everyone is fully aware of what the wrong answers are, and go from there.

Good luck America. And thanks for being the kind of neighbour that I can feel happy to live beside.

[jimking]

Towards the begining of the end or the end of the middle. Talks about there only be two classes; Rich and poor. Did you watch the whole thing?

Yes, what the speaker is referring to is if things progress the way they are, there may come a day that all you have left are the haves and the have nots. This came from her US government statistics that more people now are going bankrupt than ever before, in record numbers. So high a number, in fact, George Bush signed legislation making it much harder for families to file for bankruptcy. The speaker is making this point- Most families with children are now supported by dual incomes in order to live a middle class standard of living. If a tragedy occurs in the family, spouse dies, child becomes very ill, one loses their job etc. the family has a good chance of going bankrupt now compared to 30 years ago. And it so happens that tragedies happen to most families at one time or another, such is life! The financial burden of the family is much greater now than ever is her point and statistically she points out the differences between these burdens of today to those of 30 years ago.
I've not read the book The Bell Curve but my understanding is it refers to intelligent levels of different races of people not the load a family of different races with children carry today. And even though my link may seem to stray from Broacher's original post I think there's a link in how the "US's New World Order" is effecting the US middle class while it appears the Europeans and Canadians etc. seem to take care of it's people a bit more in a different way. Yes Broacher I agree it appears the west is very similar in it's middle class problems but I think the US is a tad tougher in many ways today.

[Mynock]

I simply refering to the shape/graph of a bell curve, not the actual book or THE bell curve original context. I can now see where you were confused.

[Riya]

Riya, I'd have to disagree with you on us pitting ourselves against nature and winning. Hurricane Katrina was ample evidence that that's not the case. We can only do our best to survive the onslaughts and therein lies part of the hubris of the American way, thinking that we could be arrogant enough to get over on natural forces. What exactly is wrong with us that we think we need to dominate nature, rather than live within it?

I was referring more to the fact that there is no longer a vast wilderness to explore. We already know what is beyond the next mountain. All of the next mountains. There are few wild places left. We are civilizing (i.e. conquering) all of them. And yes, that is a problem.

[Optimusdinkus]

*sigh* there were still plenty of blunders to be exposed from the past nostalgic moments that we all lament and try to take example from. However, it took awareness for a single damn thing to get changed from those blunders.

If you were to compare presidents, Lincon ended up breaking every damn law he took an oath to in office yet is admired as one of the greatest. And let me tell ya, he probably was given allot of grief every damn time he wanted to change something, like our current presiding presidents get after one stupid mistake (bush is an exception, however, because the ****er doesn't even listen to the how to fix parts of the problems).

It's SOOOOO easy to point out a problem. How to fix it on the other hand, and actually DOING it, boy find me that person cause he/she's the most valuable.

We are all so fragile in our existence to this planet, we could just give up and say **** it like certain republicans do and just say my money will give me everything I will need till I'm a sack of shit rotting away my last days. And when the day comes that food cannot be produced anymore because we no longer have the means to grow it,

Or we can have hope and give a hand towards progress, which is all we really have in the end.

Cause once your dead, that is it for your perception of what the world was, if it turns into a hell, then say hello and sign your welcome tag. I already had an experience that showed that to me.

[Broacher]

>>if it turns into a hell, then say hello and sign your welcome tag<<

Will there be cubicles?

If so, I'm not so sure if I'd notice.

[tuliptree]

I'm not one for talking about politics much, I know what I believe in, but I am really inarticulate when it comes to discussing politics and political history. But I can say I really enjoy discussions such as this, so thanks for starting a really interesting, meaningful thread, Broacher.

About all I can add is that in a time when the "power" and idea of "America" seems to be waning, I hope that all of us living here can eventually pull together, no matter what political belief--democrat, republican, liberal, conservative, whatever--and rise above all of the problems and issues our country is facing today.

Now I've made myself want to break out into the song "We are the world" . . . ! :p

[Navian]

Like trying to order a pizza (http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf)?

[Mynock]

From Mad Magazine: Presidents are like diapers - just because you throw the old one out doesn't mean the new one isn't going to be full of shit. or something along those lines. Mad rocks.

[Broacher]

I'm not one for talking about politics much, I know what I believe in, but I am really inarticulate when it comes to discussing politics and political history. But I can say I really enjoy discussions such as this, so thanks for starting a really interesting, meaningful thread, Broacher.

About all I can add is that in a time when the "power" and idea of "America" seems to be waning, I hope that all of us living here can eventually pull together, no matter what political belief--democrat, republican, liberal, conservative, whatever--and rise above all of the problems and issues our country is facing today.

Now I've made myself want to break out into the song "We are the world" . . . ! :p

What IS hopeful is that we can actually have a discussion like this today. I'm not so sure anybody would even want to touch anything besides 'party politics' a year ago. It's a sign, a good sign, that people are now prepared to go beyond that. To talk about longer goals again, about how to fix things. That's the only way it changes. (And thanks for the thank you)

[D-Frag]

It's fashionable on the world stage at the moment to hate America.

i think this thread is quite humorous. from what ive understood, not one nation has ever "liked" America. think about it for a moment, what nation have we not invaded, terrorized, killed or just plain abandoned, all in the name of "anti-communism" besides our allies, we really do have the entire world disliking us. and who can argue with that rationale? we have not had a good track record and even more so we see people inside the US who hate this country. we are still a relatively "new" country, yet we have done more damage in our short couple hundred years then great kingdoms have in history.

yeah we might have some good stuff to counter weigh the negative, but who honestly thinks about "good" things anymore? ive had friends travel to Canada, Europe, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Africa etc.... for the most part, American's are looked down upon as filth in every nation. and why you ask? because people will always remember the bad things before the good. yes we have helped nations when they needed aid, but people don't remember that, they remember the bloodshed, they remember their soldiers going to fight along side our soldiers in foreign wars to fight communism, and the sad part of all of this is, with all this fighting over communism in other countries, we have in turn, become a communist country. we break world laws, we torture and admit we did it. we kill without foresight and assassinate world leaders (ie: our many attempts to assassinate Castro)

I dont know what America everyone wants back. Im probably the most patriotic (dont laugh) but I really do love this country on which it was founded, not this plastic bubble we have caged ourselves in, but the real america. we no longer have that, and as long as the govt controls the people, as opposed to the other way around (how it should be) we will never get it back.

so go ahead, vote in clinton, vote in bin laden. its not going to do any good. im devastated that someone like Ron Paul, who wanted to bring this great nation back to the roots (ie, getting rid of all the BS laws that have been passed in the last 20 years) and get us back to a constitutional nation, one where states rule, not the fed. but alas, his name was smeared, he was belittled, and all the while people are happy and timid as can be.... because they fear change. welcome to the NEW america, the complacent america, the one that no longer has any "balls"

[Riya]

From Mad Magazine: Presidents are like diapers - just because you throw the old one out doesn't mean the new one isn't going to be full of shit. or something along those lines. Mad rocks.

I had heard it like this:
Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reasons.

[urstwile]

Sounds about right, Riya. ;)

[doctorfoz]

If politicians really wanted to help the people/change the world for the better, they'd be working for Greenpeace...