Inside the raw-milk underground

[Red Kittie Kat]

This is a great article ... really makes you wonder.


If the police actions against Schmidt and other farmers have been overzealous, they are nevertheless motivated by a real threat. The requirement for pasteurization—heating milk to at least 161 degrees Fahrenheit for fifteen seconds—neutralizes such deadly bacteria as Campylobacter jejuni, Listeria monocytogenes, Escherichia coli, and salmonella. Between 1919, when only a third of the milk in Massachusetts was pasteurized, and 1939, when almost all of it was, the number of outbreaks of milk-borne disease fell by nearly 90 percent. Indeed, pasteurization is part of a much broader security cordon set up in the past century to protect people from germs. Although milk has a special place on the watch list (it’s not washable and comes out of apertures that sit just below the orifice of excretion), all foods are subject to scrutiny. The thing that makes our defense against raw milk so interesting, however, is the mounting evidence that these health measures also could be doing us great harm.



http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/04/0081992

[PrintDriver]

I didn't read the article but am betting it's about how all this "protecting us from germs" is making us a sicker society.

With which I agree.
A disinfectant product you use on your kitchen counter that kills 99.9% of bacteria and germs is leaving behind a very hardy .1% that will be harder to kill next time.

And the number of food allergies and general malaise is overwhelming. Mold remediation. When did that become an issue? There are other things just as maddening. Kids not being able to eat a PBJ unless they sit at a special table. Warning signs for nut products. Wheat, gluten, adult onset allergies etc etc.

I read an article the other day in Smithsonian (or maybe Science) that the human race is still evolving since the diaspora from Africa. Natural selection has not had time to keep up. Well, it's catching up. :D

[Red Kittie Kat]

You didn't need to read the article .. you just nailed it :p

That is exactly what they are saying. Studies showing people who grew up on farms drinking raw milk are a much heartier stock.

We are degerming ourselves to death.

[obesebee]

I can't believe it's ILLEGAL to sell raw milk there. Madness. In the UK you can't by it from shops but you can buy it from farmers and there's a growing demand for it.

Next they'll be outlawing full fat cheese.

[Red Kittie Kat]

our cheese is pasturized too.

[sublimated]

Next they'll ban caffeine o_O

All work and no coffee...
All work and no coffee...
All work and no coffee...
All work and no coffee...
All work and no coffee...
All work and no coffee...
All work and no coffee...

[obesebee]

If it was ok for the human race for hundreds of years prior to pasturization, I'm sure it will be fine for us now, just as soon as we rid the soil of the chemicals...

[garricks]

For the 6-7 years I worked in a pediatric emergency room as a clerk, I never got sick after the first six months. I say it's because I was constantly having to fight off infections.

I clean my counters with plain old soap and water. The antibacterial train is being driven by marketing departments.

Food however, is a different matter. Yes, 100 years ago raw milk was fine. But that's when you likely lived within a mile of the udder it came from. Today, you likely don't. So while I'm not all that concerned about my counters, I'll take my milk pasteurized, please. :)

[Red Kittie Kat]

Yep I don't believe in antibacterial soap .. have only used it when someplace that it's the only choice.

[Typically]

so i guess th 5 second rule should be extended to the 15 second rule??

[Red Kittie Kat]

lmao Typ :D

[Typically]

if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger =] i mean there is a time and a place for wiping down the counter with a clorox like after cutting raw meat. no need for everything to be sanitized constantly.

[a_muse]

The whole raw milk thing really pisses me off.
We lived on an organic dairy farm for a while (my hubby wanted to try a different carreer), as part of the job he got all the free organic raw milk he wanted (and eggs, and yogurt, it was a fantastic deal!). I am not a huge mlk drinker myself, but my kids are and all I fed them was the raw stuff for almost a year, not one instance of illness. People living on the farms would drink it their whole life without getting sick. The biggest reason it isn't legal is money and politics, not public health and safety, at least in Canada. One farmer selling raw milk to the public had all his milking equipment confiscated and got into a ton of crap (I can't remember the details). He went on a milk fast (just drinking raw milk) to protest it, the goverment completely ignored him.

I am also a firm believer in dirt=healthy, I never use anti-bacterial anything, most of the time use vinagar & water w/ orange essential oil added. My house is a mess, but my kids are super healthy, even with 2 parents with a ton of allergies, only one of them is allergc to dust mites.

:)

ETA- Ya raw meat, chicken esp I am very careful about, salmonella sucks.

[Red Kittie Kat]

yep and there isn't much that good hot, soapy water can't get clean :)

[Virgo Nightingale]

Washing your hands with regular soap and fairly hot water for fifteen seconds kills just as many germs as the anti-bacterial soap anyway. The trick is making sure you're getting rid of the oily residue that builds up on your hands. That's where the germs live, so as long as you wash that away well enough you will have also washed away all the germs.

I very very rarely get sick anymore. I don't even know why. I think it might be the 17+ years of waitressing and handling all the cash that's been handled by who knows who before me. I do wash my hands after using the bathroom, but I don't specifically wash my hands before eating unless I know my hands have been somewhere questionable.

My fiancé however gets sick all the time. For about 5 years, he's been a guitar/piano instructor in a music store/studio. His room is small and has rather poor ventilation, and his students' parents generally insist on bringing in their kids even when they're sick. It annoys him to no end. I just think he needs another 5 years in there to build up his immune system. :D

[WannaBrie]

Interesting. I still think its odd that most humans think nothing of drinking the milk of another species, but are freaked out by the fact that human females can produce their own milk. I find it very odd that a lot of women don't nurse their own babies, but allow them to drink formula; which is a man-made chemical compound "similar to" cow and human milk (I think some kinds are derived from dehydrated cow milk or soy). I understand some women can't or can't keep it up for as long as 6 months, but for those who can, its amazing how many just don't. IMHO, this is where a lot of people are missing out on a liftetime of immunites.

[Typically]

yet another reason boobs rock!

[a_muse]

@WannaBrie- I gotta go out now, but I just want to quickly agree with you 100%

Boobs totally ROCK! :D

[vtwin_gary]

boo bees!

[vtwin_gary]

all threads eventually turn to food & boobs, this one now has both.
job well done GDF

[Typically]

in under 20 post too!

[Red Kittie Kat]

Our work here is done :D

[a_muse]

Glad to do my part.

[urstwile]

I subscribe to Harper's (print version) and read this article a couple of months ago. It was fascinating.

One of the points raised that I also found fascinating is that because of what standard dairy farms feed their cows, this introduces all kinds of stuff that grass-feeding, smaller (but also lower in milk production) dairy farms don't, which is why raw milk from a big dairy farm probably would NOT be safe, but the smaller ones, that feed the cows what they're naturally able to eat and process (grass), and not grains and other things that are not a natural part of their diet, are probably safe. From the article:

Cows are designed to eat grass, not grain. Unlike mammals that can’t digest the cellulose in grass, ruminants are able to access the solar energy locked in a green pasture by enlisting the aid of microbes. These bacteria are cellulose specialists and turn grass into the nutrient building blocks that cud-chewing animals need. In return, cows provide a place for bacteria to live—the rumen—and a steady supply of food. This relationship shifts when a cow begins eating grain. The cellulose specialists lose their place to bacteria better suited to the new food supply but not necessarily so well suited to the cow. The new bacteria give off acids, which in extreme conditions can send the animal into shock. Pushing too much high-energy feed through a cow can twist part of its stomach around other organs. This kink backs up the digestive flow to a trickle. The cow will stop eating, and sometimes you can see the knotted guts bulging under the skin. Other disorders also result from the combination of high-energy feeds and high production: abscessed liver, ulcerated rumen, rotten hooves, inflammation of the udders.

It is in a farmer’s interest to keep a cow healthy—but not too healthy. If a dairyman decreased the grain portion of a cow’s rations to a level that eliminated health problems, he would lose money. A balance must be struck between health and yield. It’s not surprising, then, that farmers end up sending grain-fed cows off to the hamburger plant at a much younger age than their pastured counterparts. On average, dairy farmers slaughter a third of their herds each year. As Brent Stoker put it, “We’re mining the cow.”

There are other bacterial opportunists that move in when a cow’s gastric environment is disturbed by a change in diet. Tired cows and ubiquitous feces combine to create conditions that are ideal for the transmission of pathogens. In a 2002 survey of American farms, the U.S. Department of Agriculture found Campylobacter in 98 percent of all dairies and E. coli O157:H7 on more than half of farms with 500 or more cows. When the milk at these large farms was tested, the researchers discovered salmonella in 3 percent of all bulk tanks and Listeria monocytogenes in 7 percent. If that milk were shipped to supermarkets without pasteurization, a lot of people would get sick. Healthy cows with plenty of energy are less likely to take on pathogens.

[Drorain]

I can't believe it's ILLEGAL to sell raw milk there. Madness. In the UK you can't by it from shops but you can buy it from farmers and there's a growing demand for it.

Next they'll be outlawing full fat cheese.

Well let me provide you a little more insight on how Massachusetts runs things...
Illegal to not wear a seatbelt while driving
Illegal to not have your child on a high chair in the car until they reach a certain height
Illegal to have fireworks
Trying to make dog racing illegal (there are only 2 dog tracks in this state)
Trying to make transfats illegal (did that one pass yet PD?)
Trying to make airsoft gunning illegal
Penalized for not having healthcare...$1000 penalty on your state taxes (thats one flavor of universal healthcare)

Yup those are just a few of the lovely things our state has enacted...theres more, but I don't need to build my thesis for why I'm looking to move to New
Hampshire more.

sorry I'm bitter

[Drorain]

and to lighten my mood...yes boo bees, though scary, do not sting when carressed

[Red Kittie Kat]

Well I can confirm mine have never stung when caressed :D

[PrintDriver]

Transfats are illegal?

I know buying alcohol before noon on Sunday still is.

[Virgo Nightingale]

Where I live it's illegal for most stores to even be open on Sunday. It's called the Bergen County Blue Laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law). The town of Paramus within Bergen County is even more restrictive, despite the retail market there generating BILLIONS every year (4 major malls plus two highways with shitloads of retail stores – within the town limits there are like 4 Gaps, 2 Macy's, 3 Borders, 2 Bed Bath & Beyonds... all closed Sunday).

(Link is for blue laws in general, scroll down to Bergen County, New Jersey.)

[Typically]

wow that's annoying. don't forget about our lovely no driving while talking on the cell phone. which is a good law but i never really talked on the phone and drove for more than a minute or two anyway. i usually would say hey im driving i'll call you back or get what i needed to know and get off the phone. not yapping about the crap i took this morning and how cute it was to my girlfriend that i'll see in 20 minutes when i get to work.

[Virgo Nightingale]

It's very annoying. Lucky for me, I live about 1/2 mile from the border with the next county. Unfortunately though, there are no malls just a hop skip and a jump away.

[seamas]

If it was ok for the human race for hundreds of years prior to pasturization, I'm sure it will be fine for us now, just as soon as we rid the soil of the chemicals...

Was it OK?

I don't see tuberculosis, diphtheria, polio, strep throat, scarlet fever, or typhoid fever as being OK.
Certainly immunization prevents many of these ailments, but when pasturization ceme in the mix, it was a true miracle.

While I'm assured that local milk, from grass-fed dairy cows, and careful conditions would be perfectly safe, I would not say the same for the corn-fed antibiotic treated factory milk we have in 99% of the households today.

Were we to move away from current factory farm system of food procurement, that'd be great. Unfortunately we have become accustomed to getting all manners of fresh veggies and fruit all year round, as well as accustomed to relatively innexpensive meat and milk.

I cam certainly on board against the use of Anti-bacterial soap (we only need to wash off the bacteria, not kill it) and overuse of antibiotics.

Sinjce having 2 small children, we've been innundated with literature from the anti-vaccine crowd. Unfortunately most of their literature is alarmist, emotionalist, and remarkably unsciuentific. It is remarkable that some of their reasonings are accepted because of celebrity testimony rather than hard science. Scary stuff indeed. We opted to vaccinate.

[WannaBrie]

Sinjce having 2 small children, we've been innundated with literature from the anti-vaccine crowd. Unfortunately most of their literature is alarmist, emotionalist, and remarkably unsciuentific. It is remarkable that some of their reasonings are accepted because of celebrity testimony rather than hard science. Scary stuff indeed. We opted to vaccinate.

I agree, I vaccinated my son as well. He is 9 and very healthy.

[obesebee]

Tuberculosis, diphtheria, polio, strep throat, scarlet fever and typhoid fever are a small price to pay for such tasty milk.

[balou]

I grew up on a farm and we always had one cow for our own milk. Unpasteurized. My parents were the same. If common sense is used and cleanliness is taken into consideration, the risk is small. Having said this, in this day of profit over quality, I would not trust buying raw milk from some unknown source. Unless I'm milking my own cow or goat, I'm buying pasteurized.

I've heard that hand sanitizers such as Purell do kill germs but afterwards make you more vulnerable to bacteria by removing the natural barrier the oils in/on your skin provide.

[Optimusdinkus]

What is so bad about banning transfats? the shit is a chemically produced nothingness and doesn't make food taste that much better and is proven to be toxic (even if it is 1000 or so people in a study). Im more for the health of the person than the profit of a company any day. But this pasteurization thing is stupid, I love EU milk, the stuff is made of gods. Hell even all the chicken has samonilla and everyone seems to do fine regardless as well. Pancaking sterile US.....

BAAHHHH!!!!!

[obesebee]

The way to make sure you're not too sterile is to pick your nose and eat it. Just a suggestion.

[a_muse]

I would never buy unpasteuried milk from a grocery store, I would only buy it directly from the farm it was produced on.

I found the immunization issue to be really hard as a parent. Some of the literature is alarmist, but if you read all of it it does have validity. We chose to delay vaccinations with our kids, I also won't vaccinate them for chicken pox or HPV.

[budafist]

The way to make sure you're not too sterile is to pick your nose and eat it. Just a suggestion.

There is truth in that. Being too sterile only makes your body weaker. As long as you're not eating viruses or poo, then you should eat it. We've had this conversation in another thread somewhere, but if you drop food on the ground - provided it hasn't been dropped on poo, you should eat it. Eating dirty things that aren't going to kill you will make you stronger.

By the way, I don't eat my nose pickings nor do I eat food off the ground. I just can see how these things might be good for you.

[Drorain]

What is so bad about banning transfats? the shit is a chemically produced nothingness and doesn't make food taste that much better and is proven to be toxic (even if it is 1000 or so people in a study).

My problem is pretty much with the state doing something the FDA should be doing, we have to many other problems to be addressed than this in our state. Then again what can you expect from a house of whores like our reps. Take our 4th district state senator, my state senator coincedentially, he was dressing up in fashion of a homeless guy and sexually harassing and assaulting women up in Lowell mass...he's using bipolar disorder as a defense for his actions, I'm guessing it was caused by the milk.

[obesebee]

I do eat my nose pickings, but not if I drop them on the floor, that would be disgusting.

[budafist]

I do eat my nose pickings, but not if I drop them on the floor, that would be disgusting.

I'm glad you draw the line somewhere :D

[NTLemon]

I do eat my nose pickings, but not if I drop them on the floor, that would be disgusting.

Indeed, that's what separates us from the animals :p

[garricks]

Where I live it's illegal for most stores to even be open on Sunday. It's called the Bergen County Blue Laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law). The town of Paramus within Bergen County is even more restrictive, despite the retail market there generating BILLIONS every year (4 major malls plus two highways with shitloads of retail stores – within the town limits there are like 4 Gaps, 2 Macy's, 3 Borders, 2 Bed Bath & Beyonds... all closed Sunday).

(Link is for blue laws in general, scroll down to Bergen County, New Jersey.)
The only thing I know Bergen County for is The Cadets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABh1v1W6iXk)...

[urstwile]

I remember those blue laws when I lived in Bergen County (Mahwah), Virgo. Pain in the butt.