Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Site Design by link changed by client - copyright infringement?
jm1786
10-19-2008, 05:26 PM
So I recently designed a site for a client for an extremely low price for the amount of work that I did. Because I'm still a young designer without tons of real experience, I tend to take on projects for less money than they are worth...part of that is I'm not good at negotiating at this time, but that is neither here nor there.
Because of this, I will put my name in the footer, "Site Design by 'My Name'" with a link to my website
Now, it'd probably look better if I came up with a little company name or something, but regardless, this info was in the footer the entire time, from concepting to actual site to the actual live version on the clients server. The client never objected or asked for a change.
I visited the site today and the client changed it. He didn't just remove it, instead he wrote "Site Design by 'His Parent company'". with a link to his parent site.
In our negotiations, it was clear that I was paid on a project basis, as a freelancer, and I was not working for him as an employee of his parent company. Originally he wanted to pay me hourly and actually work for him.
Anyways, he made this change without contacting me, and putting his company name on the design seems like it is an infringement of my copyright.
I obviously need to talk with the client and work something out, but what is the best way to approach this? What do I bring up to the client. Are there any legal precedents or laws that I can mention?
Thanks!
The answer is simple, it is whatever was in your contract. If you didn't use a contract then move on and use this as the experience that convinced you to always use a contract.
jm1786
10-19-2008, 06:23 PM
The answer is simple, it is whatever was in your contract. If you didn't use a contract then move on and use this as the experience that convinced you to always use a contract.
yeah, I'm afraid that was the answer, and now I'm looking at drafting my contracts - :rolleyes:
but... isn't there also an understanding because I am not an employee of the client and the client did not specify the work to be "work for hire", then I by default (without a written contract) own the design rights?
CkretAjint
10-19-2008, 06:24 PM
Not entirely. Perhaps he was under the impression that the design becomes his once payment is made.
jm1786
10-19-2008, 06:34 PM
Not entirely. Perhaps he was under the impression that the design becomes his once payment is made.
Okay, say he was under that impression -
A. If that impression was incorrect, and there was no contract, then is there a legal ramification for me to hold him to some type of terms because it wasn't specified by him as work for hire?
and
B. Even if the site is legally his, the design of it (the art portion, it is a non-traditional site. In fact one part in flash still retains my link because he can't change the swf file) was not done by his parent company.
Because there was no contract, I would be less inclined to make this an issue had he simply chosen to just remove the link and credit. But to claim the site was designed by his parent company...
stickleback
10-19-2008, 06:44 PM
to have uploaded his site you must have had access to the server.
Take the site down.
If your client made copies then he will simply upload it again - but if he didn't - you are in an interesting position.
if you have a contract you are covered. If you don't he can't sue you.
on the other hand - it depends if you have the time and energy to get into this - if you don't - just let it go - no-one will blame you and you'll know better for next time.
In truth, this latter would be my best advice.
CkretAjint
10-19-2008, 06:48 PM
Is his site REALLY going to bring you THAT much new business?
jm1786
10-19-2008, 06:51 PM
to have uploaded his site you must have had access to the server.
Take the site down.
If your client made copies then he will simply upload it again - but if he didn't - you are in an interesting position.
if you have a contract you are covered. If you don't he can't sue you.
on the other hand - it depends if you have the time and energy to get into this - if you don't - just let it go - no-one will blame you and you'll know better for next time.
In truth, this latter would be my best advice.
This doesn't sound right to me...if he paid me, regardless of there being no contract or not, I don't think logging into his server, removing the work he paid me for, and holding it hostage would be legal.
Unless I hold it hostage until he signs a contract. If he doesn't sign the contract, I refund him the money...which, gets me no where because i spent time and energy creating the site...which is probably why just as you said, letting it go is probably the best option.
Or, just bring it up with him and say , "hey, I realize there was no contract, but what you did wasn't ethical, you didn't even contact me, and are now taking credit for the design." and then work out some kind of compromise.
jm1786
10-19-2008, 06:52 PM
Is his site REALLY going to bring you THAT much new business?
No, probably not. He actually wants me to work on more sites for him, but right now I'm too busy to take on more projects. (finishing up my 5th year in school and job searching plus other clients)
It's more that he is taking credit for the design than anything else...
CkretAjint
10-19-2008, 06:56 PM
Call the man and speak to him about it then. Express your concern about who gets the credit on future projects.
jm1786
10-19-2008, 07:02 PM
Call the man and speak to him about it then. Express your concern about who gets the credit on future projects.
yup, that is what I'm going to do, I was just wondering if there was some legal basis for me to require him to switch it back, even with the lack of a contract, based on the circumstances.
CkretAjint
10-19-2008, 07:17 PM
You could ask nicely, but I think that's about it...
It's his website, I'm pretty sure if you went into it and shut it down he could have you arrested. The contract is what lays out all the rules of who owns what and what links can be changed. With no contract you have no leg to stand on, he can change anything he wants at any time.
stickleback
10-19-2008, 11:34 PM
so - let it go and learn.....
holycow77
10-20-2008, 12:14 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about it.
However, I would make sure that he was charge appropriately for future projects.
I tend to take on projects for less money than they are worth...part of that is I'm not good at negotiating at this time, but that is neither here nor there.
I'm worried a little about what you wrote here. I am by nature, a bit too nice and generous than I should be.
I found out very early, that if you start doing things under price, it gets very hard to get to a point where you are charging what you are really worth - the same customers come back because the price is so good, their friends come to you because your prices are great.
And in most cases, you'll end up with the kind of customers who don't really care about anything, except getting everything cheap. No matter how good it feels to have a lot of customers, or to be making a little bit of money... you don't want these kind of customers.
Forget about how much experience you have or don't have. Don't sell yourself short. You may not get as many customers, but you'll get a better quality of customers who are willing to pay to have good design. Eventually, you'll end up with customer who are going to be a lot nice to work for and you'll make more money.
I'd say you're both in the wrong here, and should talk it over to compromise.
In the first place, you shouldn't put a link to your own website and credit yourself on his website which he paid for, without his permission. If you had negotiated a lower price on the website with a reciprocal link as payment for that discount, it would have been a different matter, and would have been drawn up in your contract.
However... For him to state "Site Designed by..." his own company, that is false advertising and illegal. He is indeed infringing on copyright laws with that statement.
What I would do is talk to him, and tell him that if he does not want your website link on his site, then that is reasonable and you will not have a problem with it being taken off. However, it is a false statement for him to claim that his own company designed the website. Therefore if your link is removed, the space should be left blank or replaced by a proper copyright notice.
Without a contract couldn't you shut down the site like it never happened? Doesn't it work both ways? Legally it would probably be cheaper to build a new site then in the court room for the customer. Ethically this may not be the best route, but it could be an alternative.
Without a contract couldn't you shut down the site like it never happened? Doesn't it work both ways? Legally it would probably be cheaper to build a new site then in the court room for the customer. Ethically this may not be the best route, but it could be an alternative.
No, because unauthorized access into his files is considered "hacking" and is a criminal act.
Drazan
10-20-2008, 02:54 AM
If you are subcontracting for a company that makes websites, then expect your link to be replaced by theirs.
If you do not have a contract that states exactly who owns what and whether or not your link appears, then you have little say.
If you feel strongly about their taking credit for work that they hired you for, then negotiate. Else mark it up to a learning step and put in place a contract that protects you and clarifies for the client the expectations.
Jade
They may not be his files. Similar to how a printed brochure or spread may not be owned by the client. They only have limited production rights not full copyright. Without a contract you could argue either way.
Riefnu
10-20-2008, 05:17 AM
If he owns the server it would be hacking regardless of if he touched the site or not. I would say to try talking about it first. For him to claim him or his parent company designed it is wrong, and CAN be argued in court (I didnt say WON just argued).
Honestly I would take the lesson to start doing contracts, making the rules clear, and knowing that when someone likes that site design, and wants them to do one, your old client (who I, personally, wouldn't work with again given the choice) is going to look very stupid when they can't come up with the work.
jm1786
10-21-2008, 04:27 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about it.
However, I would make sure that he was charge appropriately for future projects.
I'm worried a little about what you wrote here. I am by nature, a bit too nice and generous than I should be.
I found out very early, that if you start doing things under price, it gets very hard to get to a point where you are charging what you are really worth - the same customers come back because the price is so good, their friends come to you because your prices are great.
And in most cases, you'll end up with the kind of customers who don't really care about anything, except getting everything cheap. No matter how good it feels to have a lot of customers, or to be making a little bit of money... you don't want these kind of customers.
Forget about how much experience you have or don't have. Don't sell yourself short. You may not get as many customers, but you'll get a better quality of customers who are willing to pay to have good design. Eventually, you'll end up with customer who are going to be a lot nice to work for and you'll make more money.
Thanks for the great advice! I've started reading more into contracts and how to properly negotiate pricing.
I've been told that I'm too nice...sometimes to a fault where I do let people take advantage of me. In some situations I'm fine with that, I think people deserve second chances...but when it comes down to business, its a dog eat dog world, and I've gotta step it up so I don't get run over.
Thanks to everyone else's advice and input!
I'm going to have a discussion with him, I want to push for my site credit to still be on there, see what his reasons are for taking it down (see if he throws any legal terms at me as to why he is allowed to), and then I have some compromises in mind if he won't budge.
Thanks again!
Riefnu
10-21-2008, 04:39 AM
Don't compromise for it if he won't budge. You wont change his mind. Worse. You'll have given him something to pressure you into cheaper jobs then. If he wants to get legal about it just say "I'll go confirm that with a lawyer" without being hostile or docile.
If he doesn't want to change it you're only selling yourself worse, and letting him step on you for something he might not even change anyway? Never compromise with someone that isn't willing to change. Because nothing will.
However thats only IF he doesn't budge. Second chances wouldn't be second chances if we didn't think that he might change it back!
Yeah, but Riefnu... The client is holding the cards here. The OP never told him that he was doing the job for cheap, because he was going to use it as an advertising vehicle. That's the OP's fault...
Riefnu
10-21-2008, 07:46 AM
Exactly why more cards shouldn't be put into play.
If the client won't budge after the OP talks about the advertisment/copyright issue then thats the problem with trying to compromise.
Why would the client WANT to compromise? Thats the question you have to ask. If the case turns out that the client doesn't budge after a polite business discussion of what's going on, and what the issue is, what could the OP compromise on? Conceed something more to the client? More underpaid uncontracted work? I just see it as touching the stove again after being burned the first time.
It doesn't pay to go back into a mistake with the same intentions that got you into it. No offense to the OP, but coming with compromise, if the client rejects the change, will just look like a weakness that can be exploited on again.
I can understand that the advertisment for the OP will help bring in more jobs, and hopefully the lesson of contracts will be taken to heart, but I just can't see the reason for justifying losing more for what should of been settled before work began.
Totem-Media
10-27-2008, 02:30 PM
I think the OP should talk to the client, and if he won't change it back, then JM shouldn't take any more jobs from him. It's not worth his/her while if the client is taking credit for work done by the designer.
budafist
10-27-2008, 09:30 PM
Talk to your client, explain that the cheap rate was on the basis that you take credit for their website. Let them know if they want credit for the design of the website then they will need to renegotiate a fee. I think that is fair. Maybe the client didn't know that the credit was important to you.