Question about .25 inch cropping for print (photoshop)

[estheticcore]

Hey, well I never really looked up on how to design for print. But I did make it in 300dpi. So I was making a design for a flier and poster for someone, and they sent it to the printer service. The printer service contacted him to tell me to bring everything .25 inches in.
-So whats the use of bringing it in .25 in? If the size of the paper that they are going to print on, for example, is 8.5 by 11 in, and you make a design that is 8.5 by 11 in, wont it print exactly that? Like if the design takes up that whole size, and you bring everything .25 in in, wont it just be empty space?

And for the poster, its 11x17. They said everything is alright on the poster. They didn't tell me to move anything. Whys that?

Please help me, I looked it up, but still kind of confused.

Heres the fliers I did:
front-
http://i37.tinypic.com/hun43l.jpg

back -
http://i36.tinypic.com/6ekdj7.jpg

and the poster:
http://i35.tinypic.com/rbwbdj.jpg



THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP! :D

[urstwile]

I think they're asking for you to factor in for bleed when it's trimmed out. But your best bet is to try to talk directly with the people who are printing it.

[estheticcore]

yeah, thats it. i dont fully understand the concept with this bleed and crop. What does it mean?

[urstwile]

When you print out something that's a design like you've got shown above, where the color extends fully to the edge of the trimmed area, printers like to have a bit extra outside of the area where they're going to trim, to prevent any white (or paper color) area from showing after the piece is trimmed down to its final size.

You haven't mentioned what type of printer you're going to be using to print this work, but for the purposes of example, let's say your poster is 11x17. Chances are that it'll be printed on paper slightly larger than 11x17 and then trimmed down. To avoid the chances of having any of the paper white showing through on the edges, in case of trimming inaccuracy, it's wise to provide for bleed, that way, any slight trimming inaccuracies will be covered up by the extra amount of coverage you've given outside the trim area.

[estheticcore]

so, if im designing for some other people, and they're having it printed at a shop, then i have to always have to have the .25 in rule?

[budafist]

Looking at your poster, you have a lot of text at the bottom that is very close to the edge of the page. It's a good idea to design with a safety margin all around. Not only is it visually appealing, but you don't run the risk of losing any precious letters should the guillotinist trim into your job by a fraction.

It is always a good idea to have bleed and trim marks on your work. That way if someone else is printing and trimming they know what they are trimming to. We ask for 5mm bleed but 3mm is usually fine.

If a client gives me artwork without bleed or trim and insist that they cannot provide bleed, then we will increase the artwork by 1% so that we create some bleed. Which is another reason why a safety margin is a good thing to work to.

[estheticcore]

so is it supposed to be .125" or .25" ?

[estheticcore]

and how come other fliers i see on the internet, some of them look like the text are close to the edge, or the designs are near the edge. i dont see the .25in rule. how do they print?

[budafist]

and how come other fliers i see on the internet, some of them look like the text are close to the edge, or the designs are near the edge. i dont see the .25in rule. how do they print?

Maybe those fliers are for internet only? Maybe those designers never listened to their printers? It's speculation really. ;)

It is not common practice to post a print ready image on internet. The file a designer sends to the printers is of the highest quality and should have trim marks and bleed (and is likely to be a pdf). The file a designer posts for web for download and emailing is very low quality to keep file sizes down and does not need trim marks or bleed (and is likely to be a jpg).

[CkretAjint]

so is it supposed to be .125" or .25" ?

Depends on what the printer wants. This is why you talk to them ahead of time.

Also, chances are if they are club flyers and 8.5x11 they will just print them out on their xerox machine, which cannot print to the edged of the paper. After printing they will just trim them down to size.

[PrintDriver]

Here is a diagram.

[Ned]

Excellent visualization PD!!

One of the labels is confusing for this situation, though... Where it says "Red Line is actual Document Size", that is assuming setup in a Page Layout program (ie, InDesign, Quark, etc.) where you can set the bleed area through document settings, allowing the program to position the crop marks neatly at the artboard edges.

However, in Photoshop and Illustrator you wouldn't do it that way... Your document size would be oversized from your crop area, and the Red Line in the illustration would indicate where you create guides to indicate crop area.

The white dashed line is your "Text Safe Area", and should be another quarter inch in from your crop area. All art you want contained in the actual poster needs to be within the crop area, and all text and other important elements which you want safe from cut-off and spaced for easy visibility should be in your text safe area.

[Agentpro]

Ok so say you begin a new job, an 8.5 x11 flyer for print, do you create it from the get go on a 8.75 x 11.25 canvas?
Also, dumb question, how do i actually make and show the bleed lines? just draw a 8.5 x 11 red rectangle and center it on the layout?

[PrintDriver]

Ah, Ned, I keep forgetting the term Document can mean artboard. Document in this illustration should mean finished print size.

In my job crops and bleed go on the Document Setup (on the Artboard) but that may not be true for all printers. Some want the Doc Setup to be set to actual finished print size and let the bleed and crops hang off.

To create crops in Illustrator, create a box with no fill and no stroke the size of your paper, select it then go to Filter>Create>crop marks.

In InDesign you can set your bleed and safeties in the new doc dialog box, or in the doc setup and Layout options for an already created doc. To make custom crop marks requires using a script. Create a box with no fill and no stroke (very important in Indesign as it will take the stroke weight into the measurements if not set properly) and go to Window>Automation> and find the script for crop marks. You can be far more specific in InD on how big and where placed your crop marks are.

In Photoshop, I have yet to find a way to add crop marks outside of 1/8". Annoying as all hell. We require 1/2" bleeds on numerous projects so we just print em from InD or Illy.

[Ned]

Also, dumb question, how do i actually make and show the bleed lines? just draw a 8.5 x 11 red rectangle and center it on the layout?


Nope. You do want to draw an 8.5x11" box as a GUIDE only while working on the piece, so you can position things properly. However, none of that will be included in your actual file.

In Indy or Illy you would create crop marks the way the PD described. If you were to actually print the bleed lines and show them in the file, then that would defeat the purpose of the bleed, since those marks would show when cut. :D

Like PD said, there's no real way to input crop marks in Photoshop (although, they have improved the PDF export dialogue a LOT in recent versions - I haven't played around, but maybe there's a way to do it there now). Basically, if you're designing in Photoshop, you want to send off your finished piece as a flattened TIFF with the correct document size to cover the bleed area, with the printer knowing exactly how much bleed you're including. That way, they can just place the image into an InDesign page to add the crops, and it'll line up properly with minimal effort.

Or... If you're ambitious enough, you can do that for them, and export it as a PDF. Do you only have Photoshop, or the entire suite?

[Agentpro]

I have the entire suite... I work mostly in photoshop and as you say, i was a little frustrated about not finding any real way to input crop marks...

By showing the bleeds, i meant for myself and for when my projects route internally for approval.

Ned, what do you mean by sending a TIFF with the correct doc size? you mean the bleed size or the printing size? and does TIFF work as a printing format? i never heard of a printer using it professionally...

[CkretAjint]

He means with bleed size.

If you have the full suite, just plop it in InDesign and set the file up there. It's a million times easier.

[estheticcore]

I don't know, but I guess is my new way of doing it. Im not completly clear on designing for print, but I just have illustrator and photoshop.

So when I want to design a flier in photoshop. I create a new document with whatever size etc... Then I go to "New Guide", and put .25 for vectical and horizon and do it for the other sides too. Then I just design within it with the quarter inch rule thing.

Thats good right?

[PrintDriver]

If you need 1/4" bleed you make your canvas 1/2" bigger in height and width than your final print size.
Then put your guides 1/4" in from the edges. Then put your Safeties 1/8" in from there.

1/4" bleed is a lot for fliers. That's why I said to verify with the printer whether he means 1/8" all around for 1/4" total add, or a real 1/4" all around.

[PrintDriver]

Also, you might check to see if a full blead 11" x 17" piece is going to cost you more because they have to run it on larger stock to get the bleed. Depends on how it is being printed.

[CkretAjint]

Yeah, 1/4" all the way around seems like a lot, but then again maybe his trimming guy is new and really sloppy! :p

1/4" total seems more reasonable. Definitely ask the printer, they would much rather you ASK them before hand then to play file hockey with a looming deadline.

[estheticcore]

oh its not supposed to be all around.

you guys said .25in right?

[estheticcore]

quarter inch, supposed to be .1.25?!

[CkretAjint]

What did the printer say?

.25" total?? or .25" around???

[PrintDriver]

.125" is 1/8"
So add 1/4" to your dimensions (0.25 or 1 divided by 4)
Yikes. Reminds me of an intern that had to count the sixteenth marks on the tape measure to tell me it was 3 little marks over 1/2". :rolleyes: ;)

[CkretAjint]

Conversions:

1 = 1"
1/2 = .5"
1/4 = .25"
3/4 = .75"
1/8 = .125"
3/8 = .375"
5/8 = .625"
7/8 = .875"

1/16 = .0625"
3/16 = .1875"
5/16 = .3125"
7/16 = .4375"
9/16 = .5625"
11/16 = .6875"
13/16 = .8125"
15/16 = .9375"

1/32 = .03125"
3/32 = .09375"
5/32 = .15625"
7/32 = .21875"
9/32 = .28125"
11/32 = .34375"
13/32 = .40625"
15/32 = .46875"
17/32 = .53125"
19/32 = .59375"
21/32 = .65625"
23/32 = .71875"
25/32 = .78125"
27/32 = .84375"
29/32 = .90625"
31/32 = .96875"

[estheticcore]

or also... is this acceptable?

for example, client tells me to create a 4x5 in flier. I open photoshop, create new document: 4 in x 5 in 300 dpi. Then I increase the canvas by .25. So then it will be 4.25 x 5.25 in. Now I can go design like how I wanted it to really be. Then, when I send them to print, I just say that there is a .25 trim. So then when its final, the real size of the flier will be 4 x 5 in with out a lot of space missing yeah?

[PrintDriver]

Probably. As long as when you are designing you realize that 1/8" all around is gonna be lopped off.

[CkretAjint]

Either, or. It's the same thing, just adding the bleed in after the fact. Just make sure the printer doesn't require more or less. MOST flyer, brochures and business car printers only require .125" bleed all around.

On a 4" flyer...
4.25" only has .125" on each side.
4.5" has .25" bleed on each side.

[Ned]

or also... is this acceptable?

for example, client tells me to create a 4x5 in flier. I open photoshop, create new document: 4 in x 5 in 300 dpi. Then I increase the canvas by .25. So then it will be 4.25 x 5.25 in. Now I can go design like how I wanted it to really be. Then, when I send them to print, I just say that there is a .25 trim. So then when its final, the real size of the flier will be 4 x 5 in with out a lot of space missing yeah?

No, just open your new document at 4.25" x 5.25", then make vertical guide s at 0.125" and 5.125", and horizontal guides at 0.125" and 4.125". Then design filling the whole canvas, but keeping the actual artwork you'll want on the page within the guides. Save out as a flattened TIFF in CMYK, and send that to the printer. Since this is purely a Photoshop job, there won't be any crop marks for the printer; but as long as you've set your size and resolution correctly and accurately, then it'll still work out fine. Assuming you've been told to include a 1/8" bleed on each edge - remember that the size of the bleed is going to vary depending on the printer, the stock size, and other factors of each project.