A question about proofs from the printer

[Blazer]

Hi all,

A question that has been long on my mind - When you submit a project to the printer and they return the proof for final approval, isn't it customary to have the proof printed on the same/similar paper the final will be printed on? Or not?

I am thinking that my assumptions of what a proof is are wrong. What is the purpose of a proof? Check registration, laid out correctly, yes. But, if it isn't possible to check color, paper, trim etc, what for then?

I designed some wedding invitations and chose a lovely, slightly textured, heavy paper from my printer's swatches yet the proof came to me on generic, thin, white copy paper. I had used my Pantone swatch book and so was not too concerned about the colors but I had hoped to have an idea of how the inks would play with the textured paper. I asked my printer rep if I could have a sample printed on the paper to be used or something very similar and he said it wasn't do-able as they only ordered enough for the final project and they would have to order more and it would cost me a lot more.

How do you every really know for future projects -- how do you experiment with different papers, techniques if you can't be sure how they will come out? What if the linen texture of this paper ate up parts of my text - any thin ascenders etc?

This was a freelance project however we use this printer with my work's bi-montly magazine and all other printed materials. They are local and offer decent prices and quality. We were able to recently get them to upgrade our magazine proofs to a paper more closely related to the final - the earlier proofs were not consistent, trimming wasn't always done well and colors not close. It has just always had me wondering what the point of the proof is.

ALSO: a small question b/c I am curious. These invitations were two sheets folded in half. One sheet being inserted within the 'outside' sheet. We ordered 175 (175 inside, 175 outside sheets to make 175 complete invitations). We received 173 insert sheets and 189 outside sheets. Now, granted 175 was a bit more than we needed to keep us comfortable, but should I raise my questions/concern? I mean, we could only make 173 invites which didn't hamper the plans (thankfully the bride was okay with this) but how did this get so far off? I did do an initial count when they arrived in the box of the insert sheets which were wrapped separately and got 173 - I figured I misscounted/overlooked a couple(and wrongly assumed there would be an equal number of outside sheets) As I said, I wasn't too concerned as the bride wasn't and I'm happy we gave ourselves room. But is this common occurrence?

Thanks for reading!

[obesebee]

You get what you pay for with proofs, at one end there is the good old PDF proof which can be no more than a content check. At the other end there is a proof that is taken off the press on the chosen stock or a pass on press. It depends on how important colour is to you and your client and how much there is in the budget. But you need to check everything on your proofs, it's last chance saloon, so check spelling, crop marks, bleed etc (in fact it pays to do your own print out before sending to print, and pretending it's the printer's proof). The real need for printers to supply proofs is so that if the final product is wrong then they don't have to pay for the mistake 'cos you signed it off! In the example you gave of the textured paper I would want either a proof on the stock, or a printed sample.

A good relationship with your printer helps loads. If they know you require quality and you both have a good understanding of the finish required then it reduces the chances of sub-standard print. Colour is so inconsistent that there is always some compromise though.

As for too few of your print run you would be within your rights to ask for the missing product, it is because of this that printers I use normally supply slightly more than quoted. Plus I always order slightly more than needed.

[garricks]

I'm a little mystified by one thing...Were these printed on a press (offset or letterpress) or on a digital press? I ask because they MUST have ordered more paper...they waste sheets doing the setup to make sure the ink mixes are correct, then they do the run, and when they stop the press there's a little overage—presses don't stop on a dime like copiers do.

For quantity, the industry standard for delivery is ±10% of the stated quantity. I always tell the printer "I have to have at least (x) complete sets, so they know for sure.

Regarding the paper selection, if you're printing on paper that's out of the ordinary, ask the printer (before you start designing) if they have experience with it. I always consult with my reps on the paper. I also call my paper reps, who often will send over a printed sample for me to view. I have a file drawer full of annotated samples I've grown over the years.

Oh, and you can always ask us! :D

[eugenetyson]

Generally what you send to a printers has to be put through their system checks and process for making plates. What is printed on the paper will be printed onto the plate.

So they use a plotter (a large format printer) or other with generic rolls of paper to simulate what will appear on the plates.

It's just for checking that all the information is there. Graphics, text, images, and there are no white boxes, weird transparencies, or other issues.

You get a final check of what hits the plates and thus the rollers and thus the expensive paper you've chosen.

Chances are that your proof job was printed on the same paper that a magazine was proofed on, an art catalogue and a some business cards,all at the same time.

This is your last chance to make sure everything is ok to proceed to press.

You've already choosen the paper. You've selected your colours.

If you're worried about colour then ask for a chromalin or similar and that will be a very shiny paper but should simulate the colour that will be printed (not taking into account saturation from uncoated stocks or tints of white etc.)

It should give a reasonable idea to colour that will come off the press.

Usually a plotter proof is the cheapest option, then Chromalin/digital and then you can request a Press Proof, on request, and for a fee (could be costly).

It's only really on press they can give you a true proof of colour etc. because the paper you ordered for the print job doesn't come in rolls for their plotter, or as paper that fits their chromalin/digital proofing system. There are 100's if not 1000's of paper types and to supply all the paper types for all the proofing systems would be a nightmare for everyone. So basically a generic paper is decided on based on it's saturation, visibility in ambient light, accuracy of inkjet/digital to press and all sorts of things.

If you want to see what it looks like on the paper you will have to pay up for a press proof, or request that you can pass it on press. To which you'll be invited out to check the print quality as it comes off the back of the printer.

[CMYK girl]

For a quantity of 175 you probably won't get a press check. If your project was sheet fed it was probably run with others at the same time, gang printed, and therefore no press checks are available either.

The proofs on exact paper are not available. The proofs on the high end can cost 3 figures. They can simulate the tone and color of your paper on a proof but again for 175, I don't think so. When we order sheet fed color printing professionally we, I, print at least 1,000 for color and up to and over 100,000 quantity.

What kind of press did this get printed on? Digital?

Sheet fed 4 color process printers can spit out 50-100 sheets in the time it takes to push the start button, walk to the back of the machine to check stuff and then walk back to the front to turn it off. Make ready (making the press ready to print colors accurately) can take up to a half hour of this.

[budafist]

I work at an offset print company and we print our proofs on an inkjet printer. It's not going to to be in the stock of the final offset printed job. Our proofing paper is 1 sided and comes on a roll. Our offset stocks come in sheets. It's not even going to be the correct colour. Especially if you have spot colours in your job. But it's going to show if any of your fonts go funky or if your images are low res.

You should get a press pass if you want to see the true colours on the stock.

[Blazer]

The invites were printed off-set.
We had ordered a quantity of 175 which was a bit more than we needed. Like I said, I wasn't too concerned about the colors as I used my pantone book but more or less concerned that my Mrs Eaves wasn't going to disappear into the texture for the smaller text. I know they have given us extras in other projects we have ordered.

I guess I am just a bit nervous to try new things b/c of the fear they might not work. But if you stick with the same old, that is no good. I'd love to try new printing techniques but don't have a way of knowing how it will turn out. I try to read and research - that is why I am on here!

I do think perhaps I need another sales rep - it is hard to explain over a forum. I'll just say he seems resistant to new ideas or can't seem to help decide how I could go about getting a certain effect or answer my question. I think he has kind of lost his zest for the job!

If I still have your attention, can I ask another question related to all of this?

These invites were printed offset on a white linen 80lb stock. Two color - a pink and black/gray. This bride was also incorporating silver into her wedding and I thought it would be a nice added touch to have metallic silver accents on the invitation. Is this do-able? Being that it was on a matte stock, is there a way to have the ink come off as metallic? I tried talking about this with my rep and he basically said no and couldn't give me any other ideas and also said it was too expensive for me. He didn't even know my budget! :) Okay, I am still curious about that. Thanks!

[obesebee]

You could have foil blocked which looks nice. Or a spot UV on a metallic can work on matte stock sometimes, but you'd need to speak to the printer about that one.

You definitely need to find a print rep that is excited about creative print. Or at least pretends to be.

[Blazer]

Hmm, okay. I actually did ask him about doing a spot UV over the metallic ink but he either didn't understand or know - he gave another 'uh, well, hmm, I don't know...you know? ehhh probably not' response.
I think he must be nearing retirement soon -I'll be anxious to work with others!

[budafist]

Foil block would be nice. But with foil block you are charged more if the area of the block is larger. So best would be to foil something small only like the couples initials for example. I have foiled wedding invitations before. With a run of about 100. It's not cheap, but it's not out of some people's budget. In fact, in some countries, most wedding invitations are foiled. The whole thing!

[Blazer]

ah yes, foil block would have looked amazing as added detail in the pattern. He didn't offer up that service so I wonder if they even do that at my print shop? I'll have to ask next time I see him.

[eugenetyson]

ah yes, foil block would have looked amazing as added detail in the pattern. He didn't offer up that service so I wonder if they even do that at my print shop? I'll have to ask next time I see him.

Even if they don't do it they can outsource it to be done. Usually printers keep good relations with services that they don't offer and get cheaper prices, the old "doing each other a favour malarky".

[CMYK girl]

You're right to be concerned about Mrs Eaves in grey ink on linen stock , how did it turn out?

Your rep is less than helpful, or his is not educated about the field. But Reps make their money on large quantities. He is not making money on this job, he needs to make a living, one can hardly fault him.

Shop around and find a printer that understands your need for small quantities with all the bells and whistles, accurate proofs, foil, metallic ink, uv, and there is more offered in the print field like embossing and raised lettering.

But you will have to be prepared to pay for it, they add up to be quite a lot.

[Blazer]

Well, thankfully it turned out!
I increased the font size due to my fear - b/c even on the proof it was coming off as awful thin. I don't know why! I don't think making the text larger ruined it...but I wanted to be on the safe side. I also darkened my gray to be sure.
They did turn out great - too nerve racking though b/c I don't like leaving anything to chance.

[CMYK girl]

Maybe you should do a google for Letterpress in MN. That is the printer area you might to explore for the more feature driven invites. There is one in South Minneapolis that lets you take a class and teaches you to print on their equipment that is booming. They are getting a new larger building right now and I lost track of them but here's a few others you might like:
http://www.studioonfire.com/
http://www.newleafletterpress.com/contact.html
http://www.lunalux.com/home/