Is web design art?

[Orion]

Would like to see people’s opinions on this. A lot of traditional artists at my college look down on me as a web designer. Like “oh it’s just a click of a button and its done”. So what does everyone here think?
</o:p>
Personally I think its art we just work with different tools and people haven’t accepted it yet.</o:p>

[DeleteYourself]

Agreed. It's definately art. Especially this site. (http://zombo.com/)

http://www.dafenix.org/todd/newsig.gif
Support Music and Arts Education | www.dafenix.org (http://www.dafenix.org) | 'You have no chance to win.' | GDF Mac Death Squad, Son

[Ryan8720]

And this one (http://geocities.com/superkickassdesign/host.html)

Possibly this one too (http://www.something.com)

http://www.edgewebdesign.org/images/misc/ryan_shadowmetal.gif (http://www.edgewebdesign.org)

http://www.spreadfirefox.com/community/images/affiliates/Buttons/80x15/white_1.gif (http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=30444&t=82')

[D-Zine]

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/emoticons/rofl.gif

agreed

Boobie Island or Bust!

[reuber1]

Those sites are pretty cool, guys. I was thinking for a minute that you were allbeing sarcastic. Seriously speaking, Orion, it depends on the people you talk to and what their opinion is of the web. Don't worry about what the traditional artists think...traditional artist is usually* synonymous with pretentious douchebag. No offense to any pretentious douchebags...other traditional artists are the reason why I didn't want to be a traditional artist. If they look down at you now, expect to look down at them later when you're making a decent salary doing work people care about while they're making sure your groceries are bagged properly.
* = though not always


People who's web surfing extents range from IBM.com to Microsoft.com aren't going to look at web designers with much respect. The reason why I think artists don'tlook at the web so highly is because the web, although formerly an egalitarian environment, is now a commercially driven mess where website A through Z try to sell you a product of some sort and it's gotten to the point where adware, spyware, and popups are everywhere you go. It's one giant focus group session it seems like. This is exacerbated by the fact that every company feels that they need a web presence, and since the launch of IBM.com everybody copied that site's design (nav buttons on left with basic cookie cutter layout). IBM hired their print team to do the web site, and in turn got a pretty dull website, but for some reason all sorts of "uber-usability-experts" thought that this was an excellent way to do a site because "IBM did it!" and you see so many sites with the same bland design...and it's still happening today! Sure, the overall designs may be different, but so many companies still copy each other and there's no differentiation. When you surf, you can easily tell what sites are given artistic thought and which ones are mucked up like the others.


I personally think that "experience-driven" sites are awesome, and true art, and for the purposes of a web site help solidify the site's "brand". If you don't already know about this site, go to www.favouritewebsiteawards.com (http://www.favouritewebsiteawards.com) and check out the stuff that's there. Most of it (if not all) is Flash based, but I think that place has prime examples that the web, for commercial useor experimentation, can be just as artful as any traditional art piece. And the web as art doesn't necessarily have to be pieces of aesthetic pleasure (although the look should never hurt the site) but rather their content can be art as well, whether it's someone's inventive blog, a portfolio page,a gaming site or whatever.


If they think that everything is as "simple" as a click of a button, do me and the rest of us a favor and punch them in the throat. Oh, I forgot, they have to take a paintbrush and stroke it alongside a canvas.

I rule. If you disagree you're wrong.

[C.E.]

don't forget whoahorse.com!

[D-Zine]

that is whorehorse!!!!

ROFL!!

Boobie Island or Bust!

[YellowDart]

IMO, the answer to that question is very subjective. There is a pretty thin line between comercial art and fine art. So, my response would be, are you asking whether or not web design is commercial art??? Or are you asking if it's fine art???

I don't necessarily consider fine art as being limited in any sense to what you would traditionally associate with 'fine art.' IMO, fine art is art that fulfills or expresses the emotional or cognitive inner-workings of the artist... not something that is contracted (typically).

http://members.cox.net/~jroffutt/files/orange_sig.jpg

[redboxer]

Hey Orion - welcome to the GDF /emoticons/cheers.gif

Strikes me that those trad artists that are looking down on you at college might be kicking themselves when they get out of college and find one of the best ways to raise awareness of and market their work is by having a great website. I know that's a bit off-topic, but in a way it's not. If those students do go on to design their own websites, I assume they'll try and make them as visually impactful as possible. Are they then going to decry their own sites as not being a bit of art in themselves? Sounds like there's a bit of jealousy and misunderstanding going on there.

I don't like the whole 'what is art' thing anyway - it's all too subjective. People do a vast range of things with varying subjective levels of aesthetic value for a variety of purposes and .. imho .. that's all art. the only benefit i see to the 'what is art' debate is to establish precendents and definitions that can then be rewritten and redefined by a groundbreaking approach.

Leave these kids to stew in their own arty juices and concentrate on your own game - after all, being different is a pre-requisite for artists, isn't it /emoticons/biggrin.gif

all we are saying is give peas a chance...

[reuber1]

What he /\ said.


I rule. If you disagree you're wrong.

[Ryan8720]

I'm not really hung up on whether someone considers a Web site art or not. So sites are made purely to relay information, and probably aren't very 'artistic'. On the other hand, others are very well laid out and aestethically pleasing.

But when it comes down to it, call my site 'real' art or not. I don't really give a damn.

http://www.edgewebdesign.org/images/misc/ryan_shadowmetal.gif (http://www.edgewebdesign.org)

http://www.spreadfirefox.com/community/images/affiliates/Buttons/80x15/white_1.gif (http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=affiliates&id=30444&t=82')

[reuber1]

Web design and it's purpose as art really depends on the user. There are people who rely on hard information (facts), and those on soft info (feelings). The audience for one product is different than that of another, and therefore their tastes in design should also be different. From a marketing standpoint it is important to have a distinct look, and not caring about what the site looks like (a.k.a. "not giving two sh!ts about the user") can do some serious harm. Would you rather have someone come to a site that says A) "This site is confusing." B) "This site is OK." C) "This is a cool site!"? Response A will have a loss in return visitors, response B will have few return visitors, and response C will have the highest chance of return visitors.

Some sites aren't merely there to relay information, but are experience driven portals for the user to enjoy (the original site for the first "Blair Witch Project" is ultimate proof of that). It all depends on what sites we're talking about. And I agree with redboxer in that art is subjective...I consider web design an art because it is a craft that not just anyone can do effectively (Geocities sites come to mind in terms of crappy-ness), and it isn't an art in terms of bullsh!t symbolism like "the color of the hyperlinks represent world hunger" or "the layout mirrors the haphazard lifestyle of today's people". It's an art because certain sites require a distinct layout and style...a graphic designer's portfolio should be graphical (duh), but that criteria wouldn't apply to Google, which requires simplicity for the end user, and how a merchant site with a catalog/database of products should be well organized via kickass information architecture and laid out perfectly. It's an art because it's a craft that utilizes many tools and languages that the designer must know in order to create something as seemingly simple-looking as a web site. It's an art because unlike what others may think, it's not easy to do. If good web design was truly easy, everyone would be a good web designer (and that isn't true).

It's all subjective. I consider web design an art as much as an architect considers his/her craft "art", or as much as a writer considers his/her writings as "art", or as much as a painter considers his/her painting as "art" all because of the work, tools and skillsets needed (the creators are the "knowers"). I think traditional artists/pretentious douchebags blur this line because web design is a visual medium, and is mistaken as an abstract art-wannabe because it's visual. And they also might not consider it art because many people on the client side in the print world and web world foolishly think that all we do as GD'ers is take their idea, push a couple of buttons and BAM!, there it is, when really it takes a lot of thought to get that outcome.

I rule. If you disagree you're wrong.

[redboxer]

Spot on reuber - why are people so hung up with definitions of this that and the other? I suppose i was pretty idealistic/struggling for identity when i was at college too. But this problem is rife throughout the full-grown adult world too! /emoticons/blink.gif

reuber said...
And they also might not consider it art because many people on the client side in the print world and web world foolishly think that all we do as GD'ers is take their idea, push a couple of buttons and BAM!, there it is

Ain't that just the biggest dirtiest truth /emoticons/dry.gif

all we are saying is give peas a chance...

[uncle carbunkle]

fine artist = pretentious douchebag? really?

wow.

:: Durable and doable in a swimsuit, yet not designed for surfing, cliff diving, extreme groping and other high-impact activities. ::

[Big Perm-dizzle]

click of the button and its done? its harder than print to me - instead of prepress issues there are browser issues - waaaay worse


I dont care if all gd isn't art as long as I am getting paid!!!!

i would rather be a paid graphic design whore than a starving artist

www.hirethisdesigner.com (http://www.hirethisdesigner.com) - portfolio
www.conceptprint.com (http://www.conceptprint.com) - the company I work for

Post Edited (bIG pERM) : 12/1/2004 6:01:06 PM GMT

[redboxer]

Amen to that.

all we are saying is give peas a chance...

[reuber1]

uncle carbunkle said...
fine artist = pretentious douchebag? really?

wow.



...at least the one's that I've met or have heard speak. Teachers and former classmates come to mind, and this doesn't represent only midwesterners since former classmates are from damn near everywhere in the country. Any interaction I've had with these peoplehas caused one, if not more, of the following:

headache
nausea
constipation
flu
mad cow
mad reuber1
If there's a fine artist who isn't a pretentious douchebag, I'd love to meet them.

If I offend anyone else...too bad.

I rule. If you disagree you're wrong.

[Silence04]

i'd say that the graphical part of web design is art.
but the backend part of web design doesn't need any artistic skills (maybe good knowledge in layout design, but thats still pushing it)


however, if a stick figuredrawing can be considered art, i think a whole web page could too.

<SUP>www.jdcgraphics.net (http://www.jdcgraphics.net/)<SUP>- currentlyunder construction
http://www.jdcgraphics.net/banner.gif


Post Edited (Silence04) : 12/2/2004 6:14:25 PM GMT

[YellowDart]

reuber1 said...



uncle carbunkle said...
fine artist = pretentious douchebag? really?

wow.



...at least the one's that I've met or have heard speak. Teachers and former classmates come to mind, and this doesn't represent only midwesterners since former classmates are from damn near everywhere in the country. Any interaction I've had with these peoplehas caused one, if not more, of the following:

headache
nausea
constipation
flu
mad cow
mad reuber1
If there's a fine artist who isn't a pretentious douchebag, I'd love to meet them.

If I offend anyone else...too bad.



[quote]*shakes hand* I'm a "fine artist"... and I *hope* I'm not a pretentious douchebag. http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/emoticons/wink.gif


-=[This signature separator has been approved by George W. Bush]=-
http://members.cox.net/~jroffutt/files/orange_sig.jpg

[reuber1]

Nah, you seem alright!

I rule. If you disagree you're wrong.

[YellowDart]

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

-=[This signature separator has been approved by George W. Bush]=-
http://members.cox.net/~jroffutt/files/orange_sig.jpg

[artshoe]

Hi, I'm a pretentious douchbag who is also a designer. I think art and design have always been a little seperate. Both are forms of art. Both attempt to communicate.

I think that art is more personal, and has the capacity to be misunderstood, where design is much more obvious in its communication goals, and should never be misunderstood. Clearly there are differences in the purpose of art and the purpose of web design. Web design is also more interactive, which adds another dimension.

I have seen some very well built sites which can be classified only as art. They are creative and rich, and ussually they are meant to display a portfolio of some kind. It's hard to compare this type of site with an e-commerce site. The purpose of which is mainly usabilty. One thing is for sure, it takes an artist to make a trulygreat website, even though the end product may not be seen as art.

</CODE>http://www.artshoe.com/links/links/accent.gif
www.artshoe.com (http://www.artshoe.com)

[reuber1]

Claiming that you're a pretentious douchebag means that you aren't one, because a pretentious douchebag will never admit it (satirically or not).

Basically what you just said is dead on artshoe. I think that there are varying levels of what art "is". We can go lengths at talking about this, but I don't want to. But from the description that orion gave, it illustrates the image of the kind of jackass out therewho thinks that they're god's gift to painting, sculpture, whatever, and those of us who communicate a message that must be understood and that should be definite as opposed to subjective imagery are worthless. I'm not saying all fine artists are douchebags or pretentious or both, but there are a lot of them out there and you have to admit many people look down on us because all we do is "get on a computer and push a button" and that's it to them, when really it's a lot more involved. They piss me off, almost as much as old people.

I hate old people.

[reuber1]

NOTE: In case any fine artists are getting offended, re-read my first post and look for the little asterisk.

I hate old people.

[Orion]

ahh thx for the replies. on a side note does anyone know where i can find more information on "is webdesign art?" any articles or so?

its for my uni work.

or if anyone hasmore really strong opinions i would love to hear more :P

thx a lot

[East of Beautiful]

i pride myself on the fact that i approach design as an art form and not 'design'

www.eastofbeautiful.com (http://www.eastofbeautiful.com) - My Portfolio
www.eobmusic.com (http://www.eobmusic.com) - My Band

[reuber1]

Just saw your site EOB, and you should also pride yourself in knowing that it is a very good one. When you can make a site that is "artsy" work, you've already accomplished a succesful design in my opinion. I just read this little blurb that I'm gonna paraphrase from a book, since I think it applies somewhat to this topic since different people have different tastes (which relates to my IBM.com and Microsoft.com anecdote); divide the world into four different mindsets based on people's job interests.

Applying

Law
Education
Business
Manufacturing
Preserving

Military
Government
Religion
Social Service
Creating

Architecture
Art
Writing
Music
Discovering

Math
Physics
Biology
Medicine


According to the example provided by the text, "appliers" prefer graphics that are precise, realistic, and familiar (a.k.a. "Boring") while "creators" prefer the lyrical, abstract, and the novel (a.k.a. "Awesome"). Also the text notes that when you break the first two groupsinto one large group and the last two inone large group, it mirrors the map of the left and right brain.


I think the "art" (which is not to be associated with the ART in my chart) of web design is designing a visual parallel to these professions so that when people see them, they can associate the visuals with the profession; example, a vector-graphic intense flash page with funky rollovers and an "organic" look/feel wouldn't make much sense on a banking website, but rather a clean, elegant &amp; professional look.

I hate old people.

[reuber1]

Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.


<LI type=a>The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
<LI type=a>The study of these activities.
<LI type=a>The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.


<LI type=a>A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: <CITE>the art of building.</CITE>
<LI type=a>A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: <CITE>the art of the lexicographer.</CITE>
<CITE></CITE>

<LI type=a><CITE></CITE>Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: <CITE>the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.</CITE>
<LI type=a>Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).


<LI type=a>arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
<LI type=a>Artful contrivance; cunning.
Printing. Illustrative material.


www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com) definition of "art". Art shouldn't be reserved strictly to the painters &amp; sculptors.

I hate old people.

[Akewz]

raku-gaki.com (http://raku-gaki.com)


www.nanahiro.com/compe/main.html (http://www.nanahiro.com/compe/main.html)

If that isn't art, then I need to have 'art' re explained to me.
The web is a fairly new medium, and like all new things, sometimes it just takes a while before the right people come alonge and change the way you look at it forever.


<embed src="http://www.akewz.com/gdforumbanner.swf" height="150" width="300" quality="high" loop="infinite" TYPE="application/x-shockwave-flash" PLUGINSPAGE="www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgiP1_Prod_Version=Shockwaveflash">

Post Edited (Akewz) : 1/3/2005 1:07:15 PM GMT