Problem printing Greys with an Arizona 180

[chrisdav6]

Hello everyone. I'm new to this forum. </o:p>
Im a Graphic Artist in Upstate <st1:State><st1:place>New York.</o:p>
</o:p>
I'm running 2 <st1:State><st1:place>Arizona 6 color solvent ink printers.</o:p>
they are cmyk with light cyan and light magenta.</o:p>
Im having a huge problem getting these machines</o:p>
to print grey. The medium im using is 3M controltac</o:p>
adhesive vinyl for vehicle graphics.</o:p>
The problem is no matter whatgrey I build in the cmyk</o:p>
gamut, the <st1:State><st1:place>arizona always adds too much cyan.</o:p>
It ends up being blue.</o:p>
</o:p>
<v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"></v:path><o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"></o:lock></v:shapetype></o:p>
http://mysite.verizon.net/chrisdav6/grey.jpg</o:p>
If anyone can help me out with this it would be greatly</o:p>
Appreciated.</o:p>
</o:p>

Post Edited (chrisdav6) : 4/14/2004 10:49:27 PM GMT

[PrintDriver]

Do you have a pantone chart you can run? (I think the Arizona is a Pantone approved machine so Pantone may send you the file).
Or you can build your own chart by going to
pantone.com/support/support.asp?idArticle=73 and downloading the solid to process pdf.
Run a chart on the media you are trying to print to and select your gray from that. You will have to change the gray in your file to the new pms color. Works for us.

Specialization is for insects...

R.H.

[PrintDriver]

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

Works unless you got a bad board on the cyan gun..........

Specialization is for insects...

R.H.

[chrisdav6]

I have a pantone to process color swatch book. Ussually when i am asked to match a pantone color i cant be exact with process inks, but it is close.</div>
But with greys its impossible. Even if i use C=0 M=0 y=0 k=50 the postershop rip still adds cmy. Im currently using 6800 series 3m inks. I called oce and they are going to send me a new profile for the rastergraphics rip. Im still afraid that this will not solve my problem.</div>

[PrintDriver]

Sorry, man. All I can do is ask questions shotgun style to maybe jog something loose. Not a lot of large format print guys active here and the only solvent machine I deal with is Vutek.
Maybe D-Frag ran into something similar when he did printing and will chime in.

I reread, both your printers printing too cyan Wouldn't be a bad chip then. Is this a sudden thing or have you had trouble all along? Do you have an ICC profile (or has it been updated) for the Controltac? Sometimes the coatings on that stuff change (I don't care what 3M says about consistency). Have you tried reloading the Rip software? Could be something with the ColorBlend programming the Arizona uses. The color change is right off the printer right? Not after you do the overlam? Some overlams don't play well with inkjet. Or, have you tried overlamming? 3M products are a 'system' and the off color could be a correction for the overlam. Might be something really simple, there is a nagging in my head that is telling me I've heard of this somewhere. I'll ask around but I don't normally do Scotchprints and don't know anyone currently with an Arizona that would be willing to answer my questions, LOL (some bridges burn all by themselves).

As for the Pantone to process book, you can mess with CMYK formulas til you are blue in the face. Doesn't work so well with inkjet, especially if you are not color managed. The only way we get even a starting point sometimes is to get the whole damn chart printed then swap out color values. Never had an problem like this with gray though.

Specialization is for insects...

R.H.

[chrisdav6]

your insight has been very helpful. Thanks Man.
Im in the process of getting a new icc profile from oce.
I think this company has had this problem for a while.
The tech guy who maintains the printers says that all Arizona owners have these problems. I say there has got to be a solution. We are also using a liquid overlaminate from a company called valpsar. They swear that thier laminate does not change the print color, i have seen otherwise.
If i am correct these Arizonas are process inks right?
And it is almost impossible to exactly match a pantone color?
I have this one customer calling me up, taliking about the guy who was with the company before me used to match pantone colors for him. And he was very happy with the results. Im not sure how this is possible? What would you say would be the most accurate way to match a pantone value that someone wanted printed? Other than using a Pantone to Process Swatch.

[chrisdav6]

Also that swatch of the grey is a bit of an exaggeration

but grey still does not print right.

Post Edited (chrisdav6) : 4/16/2004 6:00:33 PM GMT

[PrintDriver]

The inks are considered 'process' colors but they are not process inks. Every inkjet prints colors differently, inks vary from company to company, from lot to lot, and it isn't anywhere near as consistent as offset press formulations seem to be. If you don't want to invest in the time and upkeep maintenance of a sophisticated color management system, you can chart colors.

First see if you can get a pantone chart from Pantone. It comes in a file of 18 or so pages so you will have to put it together into one file in Illustrator or the layout program of your output choice (some people rip to different programs than the native one the file came in). It really shouldn't matter if you have all your programs set up to match in print color. What DOES matter is the program version number. Be very careful if you run across a mix of c and cvc in Illustrator, or open a Quark 4 file in Quark 5. Pantone reformulated in the year 2000 and some of the colors are noticeably different from the pre-2000 colors. You can get a Process chart from pantone too. If you stick to those two charts you can match just about any color. Inkjets tend to have trouble with some of the really 'warm' or really 'cool' reds on certain media. The same for some blues. If your printers are not Pantone certified, check out that download I mentioned above.

What you have to do is print out the charts on the media you are going to print on. Overlam it too if your liquid lam is changing the color of your prints. Take your pantone chip and match it to the chart. Likely as not, the color will match some other pantone number. In the client's file you will now swap his pantone color for the new number you found. Will look wacky on the monitor but it should print fine. Each program has it's own system of color application and there are several tricks you need to watch out for when replacing colors. Believe it or not, Quark is the easiest to swap. Illustrator, the hardest. Watch out for gradients and flattened Photoshop files.

If you find a color that is close and the client still insists on a closer match, you can run a block test. Find the closest match then determine what you have to do to the the CMYK formula to get it closer. Sometimes it's only a tweek of a single value, like reducing the magenta a point or two or something like that. Takes a really good eye and an intuitive sense of color. Some people are definitely better at it than others.
Run a test print of the blocks. The more blocks you do, the less likely you will have to go back for another print. The trick is not spending too much time building the test file that it eats into your profit margin. Once you've found the color, you go back to the client's file and swap in the new CMYK numbers.

Pain in the butt. And you do have to know where to draw the line. Some PMS colors just cannot be hit. On a color critical job, especially if wall paint or carpet is involved, we will loan our clients charts to pick color numbers off. They freak out a bit when they see it on their monitor but once they see the proof they are cool and converted and keep coming back.

People keep saying this method is dying because of color management software. Maybe it is. I've worked with color managed shops though and while I save on color matching charges (they still charge a minimal fee on absolutely critical colors) they all are limited in the media they use on the machines they have because of the maintenance on ICC profiling. Has to be updated daily. Shops that will run everything thru their printers still chart as the fastest way to get a match.

Specialization is for insects...

R.H.

[chrisdav6]

Thanks so much for your advise. It has definately pointed me in the right direction. I have downloaded the pantone process chart, pieced it together and printed one out. I matched those colors with my process swatch book and they were almost exact. You are so right about these printers not being able to hit reds very well. seems like you get a bright red or brown and nothing in between! All of this brain activity about color matching is making me wacky!
I guess my first step is like you said, print a swatch on each medium for a reference to match critical colors. My walls will be covered with pantone charts, lol!
Its funny, most of my customers understand that its almost impossibe to hit certain colors within the pantone charts, thus is why we use process color values to build files. I still have 1 or 2 customers that every order they place the colors are critical. What bugs me is that they dont even have a solid to process chart! So they are pretty much guessing what the color will be. Then when its not what they wanted they try and tell me its my fault!
My resarch on color correction will continue. Oce has even suggested that we pick up a densotometer. Im not sure if we will go that far!
Your system with matching against the printed chart seems to be the best and most economical solution.
Thanks for your help man.

Chris

[PrintDriver]

You might want to try picking colors in each program to see that they are printing close to your charted colors. Some programs need to have the color settings 'aligned'.

Good luck.

Specialization is for insects...

R.H.

Post Edited (PrintDriver) : 5/10/2004 11:45:15 PM GMT