are clients allowed to ask for these demands?

[lkw]

Hi all,

Listen to this. I have to create a series of postcards for this client. At first, everything was fine and dandy. I created 2 mockup postcard to see if i could do the job. Turns out i could. So before he told me i was going to get paid by the hour (I was happy because this guy was going to give me a fair going rate). When i showed him the project, we started talking about the fee again, he told me the last guy who did this project took x amount of time and he was going to charge me a bit more than that, capping the total fee. I was shocked! My work was way better than the previous person and i have to put way more than previous person hours. So he emailed the fee and told me the total fee and what it SHOULD include.

First i can't charge extra for revisions, revisions might occur.
Secondly, i get penalized if project is not done on this particular date and adds on every week after
third, has to be print ready
fourth, 2 more meetings
and much more minute details... please help.. do you guys get this kinda of demand out of your client? he is already going to undercharge me by half the time.

[C.E.]

If you need the money and can do it fairly fast.... do it. If not, tell him to pancake off. :)

[lkw]

i don't need the money badly but i want to still keep him as a client, but i just want to negotiate with him. I have never had this ki nda of demands from clients before (welll all of it together) i just want to know if you guys have experienced this before.

even if i do it fast, he could keep revising thus causing it to be late and penalizing me

[C.E.]

So then counter offer him with X ammounts of revisions (say up to 3 or something) and beyond that, he gets charged. And then make sure you have a contract. I have clients all the time that ask for ungodly obnoxious things. Most people in my industry (horse folks) I have found to like to hear a total price and what it gets them. 'For $500, you get blah blah blah and blah. Not bleh. Not blooh. Just the blahs.' And then give it to them with a smile. They usualy come back for the blehs and the bloohs. ;)

On the other hand, if they're an overly obnoxious client and you don't need the money, save yourself the trouble and say Thanks, but no thanks.

[Ulysses]

He is taking the ++++. Firstly, you need to have a set price guide for yourself. This is basically what you need to make, to live off, and it helps form a list for clients such as this. If everything is cleared upfront and priced, your clients will either be prepared to pay for your work, or not. Do not compromise what you need to make a living, and don't be scared to say 'no'. Best to turn down work if you really think you might not meet deadlines, or if it'll make you homeless.

That said, if there is alot of work required, you can round down your price list, by saying for every 50 postcards for example, you will deduct 10% from your pricelist's total.

[Mickey]

I would say, never let your client set the prices. You will never win with this situation. Tell him how much you are going to charge him, give him the specifices and make him sign a contract... If you don't you will only regret it. If he already seems like a cheep ass just wait till your ready to collect the $$$.

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[Ulysses]

Agree with Mickey. Get a contract signed, or better still, an agreement which outlines very clearly (though try to be as brief as possible) what they get, and what constitutes as additional costs ... including deadlines, and penalties for delayed payment.

[lkw]

i just want to reiterate that at first the meeting, he gave me a fair rate.. i just iddn't know he was going to cap the amount of hours on it. But generally is it common to charge for finishing the final late?

[Mickey]

Generally you would be the one to set the amount of hours it will take you to do the job, but if you do agree to his terms and cannot finish in time then yes you should probably give then a discount of some sort...

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[lkw]

also note that he is charging me x amount of time per design, which does not include the back of the card (which will be same all across) and he is also planning not to charge me on meeting time, have it set up for print. I guess i should really demand back for more. I think he is trying to scam as much out of me as possible

[Magnus]

I agree with what was said here. Give him a counter proposal...that thing about the revisions is bull hooey. You get paid for your time, period. Otherwise there's great potential to sell yourself short.

I would xnay the 4th point as well....the number of meetings will be dictated by how well the revisions go. You can't put a specific number on them.

Definately don't put a cost cap on anything...that's just insane.

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[retro]

make a contract with YOUR terms. then go from there

[lkw]

i also made a crucial mistake. The second time i went there to propose my illustrations, i left the mockup there cause he wanted to 'show' the president. So i said ok with good faith since at that time he didn't seem like he was going to rip me off and was probably going to work with him (stil could)

so what should i do if he rejects my proposal? do i have to go back there to retrieve my work? i sure dont'w ant him to show it to a different designer and ask that person to duplicate it. arggh.. stupid me.. never goign to trust any clients

I would personally give him my own terms in a written statement request that 1/3 be paid up front or I won’t even start. In other words stay in control.

As I see it now I’m going to be blunt ditch the client. I’ve seen him around the block before and he doesn’t play nice.

As a professional how can a client influence you, think about it. You should influence him no matter how hard headed he is. If not then buy buy or you can gracefully take it up the booty.

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Capt. Creative bring me those comps…

[PrintDriver]

OH my. He asked you for a due date?
We have contracts like this with clients all the time.

A client sends us a proposal for a job stating due date up front, among other things.
After we review the proposal we bid a price which WE provide.

Before bidding, we know how many meetings they want. It's added in.

We also state in our bid how many revisions we will do before adding on cost.
Believe me, those emergency text changes at the very end get very costly when the file is ripped and ready.

The client also sets the delivery schedule. In our bid we propose how we will meet that schedule.
The schedule is contingent on receiving everything press ready from the client. If the client files are late, then we usually reserve the right to add on that many days or more to the due date. Or add rush charges for overtime rate. Giving print ready files should be standard practice anyway. That's where your prepress skills can save you a lot of money.

Approval times need to be set. You can't meet their date if they sit on the proofs for a month.

It's up to the client whether they accept the bid or not. And we've lost plenty. But we win plenty too.

Another type of client says, 'we have this much money, what can we get for that?' and we tell em, in the same kind of contracted bid.

Freelance graphic design is a business first and art, maybe third or forth. Scheduling and commitment are most important skills. Counteroffer. Tell him what he gets (in a nice way) for what he wants to pay. And get a contract. If you didn't have a contract for the sample you left, that's called 'working on spec' and now you know why we all hate it. Unless you can get that piece back, nothing stops this guy from showing your work to someone else. You can try yelling, 'copyright'. Depends on your verbal or contractual agreement whether it'll work.

PD is a grande format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

Post Edited (PD) : 1/19/2005 2:10:09 AM GMT

[defjoe]

I bet this is becoming more common now-a-days.

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[Ulysses]

defjoe said...
I bet this is becoming more common now-a-days.

Sure is, defjoe. I can't help but think that with the advent of so many design company websites promoting custom design for peanut prices (some good, but most not), the average monkey wants something to Sony's or Orange's branding standard, for $5 design prices. They have no idea, nor any inclination to understand, just what a different product they're going to expect, and why ... people still just want something for nothing, but always set their sights on something that is well beyond their financial budget, or true appreciation.

Let the monkeys pay someone else for a rubber banana, I say.

[Drorain]

Clients can try and do this stuff to me, and I will tell them I'm not the right designer for the job. They do not dictate my prices or my hours. If I am to work on their project I am working as their designer, not their employee, I also would ask them to pay in thirds, Third up front, third on comps, third upon completetion. Your still a student right, If you dont necessarily NEED the money, I'd offer them a counter offer, if they dont like it they can go pound sand.

Sounds like a tricky customer, limit revisions to 3 and if its more, then keep the files until they pay for more, tell them you'd be charging for more on revisions up front tho.

Also Do Not Work Without a Contract.

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[3howards]

on our contracts, if there is a due date set, we also include a clause that we will not accept responsibility for project delays caused by the client, i.e. constant revisions, lack of content (if client is providing), etc. this little clause save us not too long ago.

'Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.' -- Isaiah 5:20

[Flaming Moe]

This is good information! But how do you write it up? Does it have to have all that legal wording and stuff?

Una-panoona-banka!

[Ulysses]

Write it up to suite your particular needs. There simply is no 'official' way to write such a document up, Flaming Joe. So long as you make notes for all eventualities (delays, revisions, responsabilities etc etc), and they sign it, it is legally binding.

[Ulysses]

In fact, like any good design ... an agreement or contract might require a few revisions before you're happy with it (often, as a result of learning from mistakes, such as not making something clear in the document).

[lkw]

thanks for all the advice. I was definitely going to work on this project only if i have a contract i agree with. I only posted this because i never had such a bad experience before dealing with clients. I work full time so i only get freelance project once a while and only on certain type of clients. Most if not all my previous clients are easy to deal with because of screening process and never demanded so much before in just one contract. Therefore i was totally shocked by what this guy was asking for. The back of my mind, i am already ready to turn him down but i will try to negotiate hard for what i believe is the right amount.

thanks again everyone

[dziner2]

Your problem is not uncommon! It is all going to come down to how you handle this. I recently had a client come to me with a pretty good printing and design order. I quoted it and set some guidelines on design times and art approval. Well at the last minute he comes back to me and says he wants to set terms of : 60 days and max of 3 hours design time. I told him no can do! He came back and said he would pay 50% when the job was printed and quality checked, and 50% 30 days out. And he wanted to cap the design at 3 hours. Well the job was for 5 different tri-fold brochures at 40K printed 4/4 of each. He argued that the art should take no more than 2 hours because he had already created it. Well what he had done was use Microsoft Publisher and made some ugly 'fliers'. Which means nothing because the art has to be completely recreated to be press ready.

So I thought to myself, I stand to make about $2300 on this job ( I was designing and brokering the print work) and will keep him happy and keep his work. And the bank knows I need the cash. BUT, if he is having issue with making his payment, what is there to say in 30 days he will have the money, or will even ok the work AFTER it is printed. So I told him if he can get the job done at my price and get those terms and restrictions on the design work, go ahead and do it. A week later he calls and wants to renegotiate.

My advice is to be friendly and courtious, but always cover the business part of a job first. I dont do anything anymore without an autograph on an order with terms clearly layed out. Most business people can respect that and it doesnt hurt the friendly working relationship that you establish. It is just business and the most successful business people in the world are good negotiators and have no problem bluffing or calling a bluff. It sounds to me like your client does not understand the real amount of work that is going to be involved with the job. I would politely tell him that you are in business to make money jus like he is, and at the price he is willing to pay, this would not be a good business decision to proceed without revisiting the compensation that is involved. If the guy is worth his salt he will appreciate your candidness and rethink his position.