Alive ... or not alive. Your views.

[Ulysses]

This is something that is questioned more and more today, with the question of 'what is it to be alive?' proving a more and more difficult question for us to ask: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4367201.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4367201.stm)

What are your views/experiences on this difficult issue?

[morea]

This is a tough one. I have been following the story for a while now, and am not sure what to think.

For those not familiar with the scenario, here are the facts as I understand them. Please correct me if I am wrong!

1. The couple was married for a very short time when Terry Schiavo had a heart attack and suffered brain damage.

2. The husband is a qualified nurse. He claims that Terry had discussed with him that she would not want to be kept alive on life support, should it ever come up. Terry did not have a living will or any written instructions as to her wishes.

3. Terry is not on life support, including anything to keep her heart going or a ventilator. She requires a feeding tube to keep her from starving to death as she is not able to eat for herself.

4. Terry's parents claim that she would want to live, and are willing to accept responsibility for the medical bills, etc. to keep their daughter alive.

5. The husband is now engaged to another woman, who he has children with.

6. The husband was offered $1 million to give up custody of Terry to her parents, and refused.

7. Evidence has been found that suggests that Terry was bulemic, and possible the victim of domestic violence.

8. The husband has refused to allow the curtains in Terry's room to be open to allow sunlight in, and has also refused to allow therapy animals in the room even though Terry was a known animal lover. Once the feeding tube was removed, he refused to allow nurses to place ice chips in Terry's mouth to relieve her thirst.

9. Terry seems to be responding to her parents and has made some progress in recognizing people and communicating with them to some degree.

It really is a tough situation to understand. I don't begin to comprehend all of the medical issues involved, but it would seem that if this woman did not want to live she would not try so hard to interact with others. She seems to exhibit a will to live.

There are speculations that the husband wants Terry dead in order to hide something - whether it be domestic violence or somethinng else. These are, of course, just speculations.

I believe that if Terry's parents want to accept responsibility for her, they should be allowed to. Her 'husband' has obviously moved on with his life, which he had every right to do. I believe that if there is a chance for this woman to regain any of her capacity - and it does appear that she is making progress - the husband should waive his rights as her guardian and turn her over to her parents care.

As to whether the government should be involved, I guess I can see that from both sides of the fence. I don't know the whole story, and don't want to make a judgement as to whether that is 'right' or not.

But like I said, it's a tough case. I'm glad that it is NOT my decision to make.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.</font>

[Drawing a Blank]

I will admit from the start that I don't know as much as Morea does about the case and I'm not sure this woman should have her feeding tubes removed. I do know that she is not on life support technically because she is not hooked up to a repirator and she does not have a ventilator tube stuffed down her throat. I wonder though if a feeding tube isn't also a form of life support? If she doesn't have it she will die and she can't feed herself so in my opinion it is a form of life support. I've not heard about alligations of the husband being a wife batterer and it seems like they should be able to prove that. Once a domestic abuser always a domestic abuser and they should be able to find evidence of it from his current partner shouldn't they? I don't understand why he won't just relinquish his custodial rights to the parents either it makes no sense to me and seems to support the scenario that he has somthing to hide.

I feel sorry for Terri Shiavo because she is caught in the middle of this without the ability to voice her opinion. I hope she gets what she wants whatever that may be.

I have removed some of my comments so this thread doesn't become a political debate.




blah blah blah blah blah blah

Post Edited (Drawing a Blank) : 3/21/2005 3:46:10 PM GMT

[morea]

[quote]

Drawing a Blank said...


I feel sorry for Terri Shiavo because she is caught in the middle of this without the ability to voice her opinion.I wholeheartedly agree.

This case should be a reminder to all of us that we should make certain that our wishes are known - and in writing - so that our families and loved ones would not have to go through such an agonizing struggle should something happen to us.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.</font>

[Drorain]

okay, I am very close to a family that is similar.

Does anyone know anyone that is severally retarded? I mean not able to help themselves at all...?
The boy that I know is approximately 27 years old, he was born in the state I will describe him as.
This boy, is severally retarded...to start, blind, no mental capcity as you or I know, he moans constantly, no in pain, but as someone in his condition does, he sucks on his fingers which are bent at a 90 degree angle all the time, he rocks back and forth...sometimes the moans change to what sounds to be painful crys. This is not pain, but rather as a child crys out to their mother, he needs something, food, diaper change, even just attention. He's in a wheel chair all the time. He's fed through a tube, tho he used to eat, but his tongue has swollen to much and he can breath thru his nose. I have known the family all my life, they love him dearly, and they have faught to keep him in their care, and have suceeded.

Terry Shiavo is no different. She looks like this boy...steven...the wide eye open mouth look, she also reacts to people around her. She could be cared for at home, shes simply on a feed tube.

To let her die is not only barbaric, but simply reminds me of nazi practice to killing the retarded/mentally ill. Our society seems to think they can designate life or death on our whim. She cannot now make the decision whether to live or die, but their are people that will care for her...even people that will donate to the cause.

If she dies...I will offer my services to any organization that opposed this, because more people need to be educated on this condition. Its not fair the husband wants this done, as a guardian, he doesnt have the right to control her life or death. When a person is braindead...and when machines keep her alive like an engine...this is a different story. The soul is gone.

Not being on life support...but only fed thru a tube, she has every right to live, and this thin story of his previous convasation with her on being kept alive is full of crap.

http://www.grivakisgraphics.com/images/img_logomark.jpg

"OH what a big man you are!...Let me buy you a pack of gum, I'll show ya how to chew it..."

~Al Pacino, Glen Gary Glenn Ross

[Drorain]

on the subject of the politics...
I believe it is necessary for the gov't to get involved in this case...because this is going to lead to a precident...this could be considered a first case.

This is not politically motivated, look at the house votes, most of the dems also sided with her right to live.

This is the beautiful system of checks and balances. Based on the law the judge may have made the right choice, but now we see the legislature and the executive branch step in to balance out the decision of the judge...maybe a new law will be made. This is the beauty of our system at its core, This is why I love this country. . .We dont have to be victim to one group, but instead we have a system that corrects itself from within.

http://www.grivakisgraphics.com/images/img_logomark.jpg

"OH what a big man you are!...Let me buy you a pack of gum, I'll show ya how to chew it..."

~Al Pacino, Glen Gary Glenn Ross

[Drawing a Blank]

Drorian said...
This boy, is severally retarded...to start, blind, no mental capcity as you or I know, he moans constantly, no in pain, but as someone in his condition does, he sucks on his fingers which are bent at a 90 degree angle all the time, he rocks back and forth...sometimes the moans change to what sounds to be painful crys. This is not pain, but rather as a child crys out to their mother


Drorian how do they know that he isn't in pain? I'm not being smart I just want to know. I have a handicapped neice (don't like the word retarded) though she can feed herself and walk and talk she will never function higher than a 5 of 6 year old would. I know when she is in pain because she can communicate it through speech how do they know this handicapped boy isn't in pain?


I have removed some of my comments so this thread doesn't become a political debate.













blah blah blah blah blah blah

Post Edited (Drawing a Blank) : 3/21/2005 3:46:46 PM GMT

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

The government - at State and Federal levels - needs to butt out of such personal family issues whether the motivation is political or not; religious or not.

- J.

:: :: :: :: :: :: ::

Jeff Fisher :: Engineer of Creative Identity
Jeff Fisher LogoMotives (http://www.jfisherlogomotives.com)

:: :: :: :: :: :: ::

Member - HOW Magazine Editorial Advisory Board :: HOW Design Conference Advisory Board

Author - 'The Savvy Designer's Guide to Success: Ideas and tactics for a killer career' - from HOW Design Books.

:: :: :: :: :: :: ::

[morea]

neuro said...
It seems so suspicious that the husband has been so difficult to deal
with. Without a living will that states otherwise, I feel the woman should be kept alive. If the husband was told otherwise then he should have had her make the will. There is nothing to prove that what he says is true. It seems even more unlikely due to the fact that the parents, who raised this woman from birth, say otherwise. Why would that be? It just doesn't make sense that she would share something like that with her husband and not her parents. I understand that as we grow up we may become more distant with our parents but this seems like something that is really of importance. It seems that the husband is using this for the convience. Nothing less.

The new information surfacing about the possibility of domestic violence or something more are disturbing. If this is the case then we can only pray that this woman finds a way to tell someone. To have the monster who did that to her put away. With the way media is today it is hard to tell what is the truth and what is just media frenzy. I would never want to be where he is but think that in so many ways he is being selfish. He is acting like she is property and not a human being. If he views her differently than that then why hasn't he allowed the parents to care for her. He obviously is ready to move on and live his life. Then that is what he needs to do. Not act like a small child in a playground fight over a toy. This woman is a human being and should not be put through the off and on circus of having her feeding tube taken away and given back.

It has become a game and a game that is more than just cruel. At this point, if she wanted to be kept alive or not, NO ONE would want to go through what she is. To be told you are going to die over and over again. Having her means of living taken away and then given back only to be ripped away again. She is being abused. Plain and simple. At this point the husband is abusing her by not allowing her to just be comfortable. How is putting her through all this, quality of life. He needs to step aside and realize that the abuse that she is going through now is far worse than being kept alive and cared for by her loving parents. This has become too much of a media frenzy and a battle. She
needs to be left to live her life out in peace. Not fought over like a damn piece of property.

The husband needs to step aside and move on. He needs to let the parents who wish to take on the burden of caring for her. The abuse to HER needs to stop!!

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.</font>

[uncle carbunkle]

100%, JeffFisherLogoMotives.

drorain - you said that her husband 'doesnt have the right to control her life or death'. but surely feeding the woman through a tube when, according to him, she did not want to be kept alive by artificial means is just as intrusive as euthanasia. this is not a euthanasia issue, though. it's letting her die, or live, by natural means.

'...when machines keep her alive like an engine...this is a different story' - i read this as the same situation.

i don't know what i would do. but, as i will have power of attourney in the event of my parents incapacitation, i've already had the conversation with all of my loved ones. i would never want that decision on my hands.

::Don't call me Foreman, for I am your Boss::

[Drawing a Blank]

This situation happens 100's if not 1000's of time each day. Why is this case so different?


I agree with Jeff on this the government shouldn't be involved. If the parents want to take responsability I think the husband should step aside. Not because the courts tell him to, but because it would be the right thing to do if it can be proven she would have wanted to live (why not they want the husband to prove she didn't want to live) and if it can be proven she isn't suffering.


blah blah blah blah blah blah

[Drorain]

I guess my whole outlook of life is very different than most of your opinions.

My life is not my own...I belong to my family, my friends, you guys, and my future family. Otherwise why do people mourn the dead?

Someone else should not have the power to control that, based on a conversation that might or might not have happened.

http://www.grivakisgraphics.com/images/img_logomark.jpg

"OH what a big man you are!...Let me buy you a pack of gum, I'll show ya how to chew it..."

~Al Pacino, Glen Gary Glenn Ross

[uncle carbunkle]

is she being fed against her will?

::Don't call me Foreman, for I am your Boss::

[Ulysses]

neuro said...
...It just doesn't make sense that she would share something like that with her husband and not her parents. I understand that as we grow up we may become more distant with our parents but this seems like something that is really of importance...

I can't outright agree with that, because I myself have disclosed similar things with my previous partners, that I've not found the appropriate moment to tell my family (probably because I have lived far away from them for some time, it has become easier not to need to rely on them). That aside, it seems very plausable in my view.

neuro said...
He is acting like she is property and not a human being ... This woman is a human being and should not be put through the off and on circus of having her feeding tube taken away and given back ... She is being abused. Plain and simple.

I think this is a very important point that Neuro has brought up; this woman IS and HAS been outright abused. Okay it is difficult to decide on what to do about sustaining her life, but a decision should have been reached, and settled with, prior to doing anything. Otherwise, as has happened, she is being played with as is convenient by everyone around her.

It is very disrespectful to her and to the people that care for her, to treat her as a puppet in this way. For someone regarded as 'normal', the acts from the decisions made, would cause outcry, and result in criminal prosecuting. As such, I think the courts (and everyone involved in making decisions on her behalf) should be tried for criminal acts against her human rights (which is what has been blaintantly committed - just dismissed as such, because her human rights are being completely disregarded, because her very life is in question).

As long as she is being passed between the decision of being alive, and not being alive, her human rights should be apllicable for one decision or the other, but in each way, she has been outright disregarded of them. This is just not right.

[Drawing a Blank]

Yes Ulysses, but I don't think you can only blame the husband for what she has been put through as Nuero said "At this point the husband is abusing her by not allowing her to just be comfortable." There are two party's in this fight and both party's are cullpable in these abusive actions. Who are we to say that whatthe husbandis doingis or isn'tdoing exactly what she wanted? No one can prove it either way except for Terri who no longer has a voice.
It really scares me that when the family was being deposed before the trial they said they would do anything to keep her alive including amputating her limbs if she develops diabetes thus leaving her as nothing but a torsoand a head. Who would be made to feel better by having that happen?




blah blah blah blah blah blah

[morea]

I was listening to this on National Public Radio on the way home tonight... the parents said that they felt that they were backing into a corner by the husband's attorney, and that his line of questioning was 'well, if Terry developed severe diabetes and had to have her right arm amputated, what would you do?' They said that they would have a doctor amputate the limb. The lawyer then supposedly continued, 'well what if she had to have a leg amputated', etc, and progressed through all of the limbs. Then he allegedly said, 'well, what if your daughter had a serious heart condition and needed heart surgery?' To which they replied that they would authorize the surgery to be done.

The whole thing was apparently blown way out of proportion and the parents said afterward that it was not what they meant...

It's hard to listen to both sides of this case - where both the husband and the parents supposedly believe that they are trying to protect Terry's best interests - and say that one or the other is right.

I couldn't make that decision.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.</font>

[Magnus]

Well...would you want to carry on living like that? Can this person ever be a productive member of society again, or are they going to just take up an enormous amount of resources in both time and money? I say, if she has a chance of recovering then give her the chance. But, I think it's fairly clear, that she won't. At least not to live on her own. I say let her go. Until they can get the stem cell thing down pat and repair brain tissue damage, people like this shouldn't be forced to live because we have the ability to do so.

"Sometimes I do what I want...most of the time, I do what I have to." (Cicero, from "Gladiator")

"There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path." (Morpheus, from"The Matrix")


"It's not cheating if you win...do what you have to do, but don't sacrifice your own honour in the process." (Taken from my iaido instructor, and modified by me)

"I am serving my time in hell on earth...at the job I am currently employed at." (Magnus, about his job)

[Ulysses]

The issue is always the same ... is this human normal? If they act like they are conscious and indpendent, then yes. If not, then we let them die. Well if that is the case ... then we'd be right back on the topic of what constitutes as a lifeform's right to live.

We'd be asking things like:

Do they have to be human?
Do they have to conform to this weeks fashionable philosophy of what is alive?
Do they have to communicate to the individuals accessing their right to live, in a way that they require?

You get the picture I'm sure.

[Neuro]

The biggest problem with this whole thing is there is NO CLEAR EVIDENCE that she would not want to be kept alive. Just because the husband says that doesn't mean that it is true. There is something really creepy about this guy and I really think he is hiding something big. Who knows if we'll ever see it or hear about it.

Mag - I have a completely serious question for you...

Do you believe that anyone that is profoundly retarded should be 'put to sleep' because they are not a productive part of society? Are they not human being like the rest of us...just much less fortunate?

Not trying to provoke you. Just curious what your stance is on that. I worked with profoundly retarded ppl for about 3 years and we had a lot of trouble getting funding and trouble getting society to except these individuals as just that...individual human beings.

I agree that someone should not be kept alive agaist their will but if it isn't clear what their wish is, should we not assume that they would want to kept alive?

** Personal Blog (http://neuro-i-carmotur.blogspot.com)

** Business Blog (http://catseyecreations.blogspot.com) - updated 3/20/2005

[LimedDesign]

Both sides of this story have very very good points. I believe that maybe he should step aside as much as I believe that she should have created a living will. But I don't believe that the government should be involved with this.

If I were the person who couldn't eat, walk, talk or create or maybe even think... I would want to die. Whatever religion or after life thing you believe in, can't it be better than this?

To be trapped in your own mind while your body slowly deteroriates and you deficate and urinate all over yourself.

To be unable to control a single thing. I couldn't take.

I would want out.

But that is me and not her.

Without language, there is NO concept...

[LimedDesign]

Three more quick things.
-----------------------------
Not only would i want to die, I would also want to give my usable organs away.

Does anybody know how to or how much it takes to create a living will?

And please people, don't let this come between us.

Without language, there is NO concept...

Post Edited (LimedDesign) : 3/22/2005 12:32:43 AM GMT

[Ulysses]

If we imagine that we have been bed bound and unable to communicate through our body, but still have our original state of mind in tact, would we not reserve the right to live as a human being!?

Combine that with the desire to end one's life under such circumstances, and we have a recipe for an unresolvable situation for those around us, don't we?

[LimedDesign]

Oh yeah. It's a hell of a thing and all of it could be solved just by a living will.

Without language, there is NO concept...

[Magnus]

Hey Morea, your question wasn't provocative at all. And it's totally fair.

Here's what I believe, and it's probably going to come across as being harsh. Back in the day, when humans were more or less living in a balance with nature, we used to live by a rule. Survival of the fittest. When evolution by fluke produced a mal-formed offspring, it generally died. For the simple reason that in order to live, you needed the proper tools to do so.

Now, humans step in playing god...and many of those who should be dead due to the simple laws of nature, are now allowed to live. This includes stupid people...tee-hee-hee. Now, I'm not saying that people inflicted with Cancer should be put to death. Not at all...any man-made or man-advanced disease that is inflicted on others should be fixed by us.

I also believe that if genetic disorders can be fixed either before or after birth, then so be it. If we can strengthen our species faster than evolution can...could this not be considered a different type of evolution? Anyway, that's for another debate.

On this issue, or on the issue of retarded people...I believe if their births can be aborted at the time when they're not considered people, then do so. We can detect abnormalities in the fetus. I think it's unfair to go against yet another law set down by nature because we deem it ok to do so.

Now, yes, certain levels of mental retardation will still allow people to have menial jobs. Personally, if I was stuck in this position, without having any means to better myself to a level equal to those around me...what would be my purpose in living? If I can't make myself better, if my instinct for survival, to excell and grow to my full potential cannot be realized because I don't have the capability...can you imagine how terrible that must feel.

I think...therefore I am. Do these people ponder this? Who knows. All I know is that this isn't right. We fret about ending the life of one person who's running at what..10% capacity? But think nothing of the massive amount of death and carnage we cause through deliberate action in other places around the world...and not just to humans, but to everything.

That also, isn't right.

So yeah, pull the plug. Free up some money and resources so that someone who can truly be 'saved' might benefit from it.

"Sometimes I do what I want...most of the time, I do what I have to." (Cicero, from "Gladiator")

"There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path." (Morpheus, from"The Matrix")


"It's not cheating if you win...do what you have to do, but don't sacrifice your own honour in the process." (Taken from my iaido instructor, and modified by me)

"I am serving my time in hell on earth...at the job I am currently employed at." (Magnus, about his job)

[PrintDriver]

Forget the living wills. Get yourself a Healthcare Proxy. You can get the forms at any hospital or doctors office. You need to have two witnesses and maybe a notary (or maybe not, I can't remember). Just be sure you talk to the person you designate to be absolutely sure they understand your wishes.

And if the husband remarried, can't the woman's parents sue for custody based on abandonment? It seems odd that a husband who has 'moved on' as it were would have any say over the objections of kin. Weird. If the woman is aware at all...she deserves a chance.

Mag, you may say you want to die if it were you. In fact most people, when asked, would say they'd rather die than live crippled or impaired. Hell, even my friend who's a low quad said he was the same way, until it happened to him. Then he didn't quit. He's regained quite a bit of his mobility but he'll never, ever walk or even dress himself again. If the parents are willing to pay for the resources, that's what the resources are there for. Determining a person should die because they aren't 'on a level' with those around them invites eugenics on a grand scale.

PD is a grande format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

Post Edited (PrintDriver) : 3/22/2005 3:08:41 AM GMT

[morea]

^^^ my fears exactly.

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.</font>

[Magnus]

Good point PD. But we're not talking a quadrapolegic here. We're talking about someone with severe brain damage. Who knows...quad and para's can maybe be fixed one day...if we again take stem cell technology where we have dreamed of taking it. People in this case, those that have suffered massive head trauma, strokes, etc. etc. could also be 'cured'.

But we're not there yet. For all we know, this woman's base instincts or reactions to stimuli such as food and sound could be the only thing making her tick.

I've often thought about what I would do if I ended up in really bad shape. Thing is, you never really know until you're there. So long as my genitals worked, I think I could get by... =))

"Sometimes I do what I want...most of the time, I do what I have to." (Cicero, from "Gladiator")

"There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path." (Morpheus, from"The Matrix")


"It's not cheating if you win...do what you have to do, but don't sacrifice your own honour in the process." (Taken from my iaido instructor, and modified by me)

"I am serving my time in hell on earth...at the job I am currently employed at." (Magnus, about his job)

[PrintDriver]

I hear that!

PD is a grande format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

[Neuro]

Hey Mag - it was me that posted that not Morea. Seems like a lot of people on here are doing that lately. HA! Probably the cat avatars and the posting close together. I appreciate you writing your opinion. I can see where you are coming from, don't agree but I see it. Unfortunately times have changed.

** Personal Blog (http://neuro-i-carmotur.blogspot.com)

** Business Blog (http://catseyecreations.blogspot.com) - updated 3/20/2005

[Magnus]

Shit...really? LMAO...hahahaha

Ever notice there are things...computer related like menues and such, that you don't even really read anymore, you just go ahead at 100 mph?

Well, I'm a dumbass. Sorry Jake...lmao!

"Sometimes I do what I want...most of the time, I do what I have to." (Cicero, from "Gladiator")

"There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path." (Morpheus, from"The Matrix")


"It's not cheating if you win...do what you have to do, but don't sacrifice your own honour in the process." (Taken from my iaido instructor, and modified by me)

"I am serving my time in hell on earth...at the job I am currently employed at." (Magnus, about his job)

[Neuro]

No problem. Just been happening a lot on here lately.

** Personal Blog (http://neuro-i-carmotur.blogspot.com)

** Business Blog (http://catseyecreations.blogspot.com) - updated 3/20/2005

[morea]

/DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/rofl.gif

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.</font>

[Ulysses]

Is this Mod Hour?

[morea]

LMAO - mods and rockers. You in, ulysses?

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.</font>

[Ulysses]

I'm here, but at this time of the morning, nobody's home morea.

[morea]

I don't blame you! It's only 10:30 here, and I'm getting drowsy! (Of course, I have to be up at 5:30... ick!)

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.</font>

[Ulysses]

I need to be up for a meeting in about 5 hours, so I'm gonna be awake until then, and come back home and sleep right after, lol.

[morea]

sorry... back on topic... why did this go on for 15 years before turning into such a huge debate?

The more people I meet, the more I love my cats.</font>

[Magnus]

People like to let things fester and become a big issue before solving it?

"Sometimes I do what I want...most of the time, I do what I have to." (Cicero, from "Gladiator")

"There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path." (Morpheus, from"The Matrix")


"It's not cheating if you win...do what you have to do, but don't sacrifice your own honour in the process." (Taken from my iaido instructor, and modified by me)

"I am serving my time in hell on earth...at the job I am currently employed at." (Magnus, about his job)

[morea]

another issue... I really can't get my brain around this one.

you guys know how much I love my cats... I would do anything I can for them. Well, if it came down to their continued survival depending on a feeding tube to keep them from starvation, I didn't know if it would be considered 'humane' to keep them alive. On the other hand, letting them starve to death - whether they are mentally and physically aware that is what's happening or not - is definitely NOT humane.

With a pet, you have the option for what essentially amounts to a 'mercy killing' by euthanasia.

We are one, our cause us one, and we must help each other if we are to succeed. ~ Frederick Douglass

[morea]

kevxml2adsl.verizon.net/_1_E93TO1026W1C7J__vzn.dsl/apnws/story.htm?kcfg=apart&feed=ap&sin=D890CEH00&qcat=usnews&passqi=&top=1&ran=19671 (http://kevxml2adsl.verizon.net/_1_E93TO1026W1C7J__vzn.dsl/apnws/story.htm?kcfg=apart&feed=ap&sin=D890CEH00&qcat=usnews&passqi=&top=1&ran=19671)

We are one, our cause us one, and we must help each other if we are to succeed. ~ Frederick Douglass

[morea]

As someone who has been following this case for months, it has meant a lot to me.

I just heard on the radio that Terri Shciavo died. At least now she is finally beyond suffering. What a tragic situation. Here is the article from CNN... looks like her husband wouldn't even let the family see her before the end. Whether you agree with them or not, that seems terribly cruel.

It makes me feel very sad. Let's keep the people involved in our thoughts and prayers.

Terri Schiavo has died
Thursday, March 31, 2005 Posted: 10:07 AM EST (1507 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Terri Schiavo, the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman who became the centerpiece of a national right-to-die battle, died Thursday morning, nearly two weeks after doctors removed the feeding tube that had sustained her for more than a decade.

Brother Paul O'Donnell, a spokesman for Bob and Mary Schindler, Schiavo's parents, said the couple was with their daughter's body and praying.
Wednesday, the Schindlers lost what their lawyer described as their "last meaningful legal appeal" in their desperate battle to have their brain-damaged daughter's feeding tube reinserted.

The U.S. Supreme Court late Wednesday refused once again to hear an emergency appeal from the Schindlers.

Their lawyer, David Gibbs, heard the high court had rejected the appeal during a news conference outside the Pinellas Park, Florida, hospice where Schiavo was receiving care.

"It appears that that will be the last meaningful legal appeal unless something comes up," Gibbs had said. "Fundamentally, the decision of the Florida courts will remain unchanged and the federal courts have declined to get involved."

Thursday morning, O' Donnell said that Schiavo was in her final hours of life, and police have prohibited her blood relatives from spending time with her.

O'Donnell, one of the family's spiritual advisers, said that her parents and siblings were "begging to be at her bedside...but are being denied."

Michael Schiavo was Terri's guardian and controlled who may visit her and when.

Pasco-Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer in Clearwater, Florida, ordered the feeding tube removed March 18 at Michael Schiavo's request. He has said that his wife wouldn't have wanted to live in her condition -- what Florida courts have deemed a "persistent vegetative state."

The parents felt otherwise and had sought to take guardianship of their daughter from her husband. Their bitter court battles began in 1998.

"I don't understand why Michael Schiavo at some point didn't walk away," Gibbs said.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, who has jurisdiction over Florida, Georgia and Alabama, and could have ruled on the petition on his own, referred the appeal to the entire Supreme Court at 10:40 p.m. Wednesday.

There was no breakdown of the vote, and the high court issued no explanation for its decision. The petition had been filed earlier in the night.
It was the second time in a week the high court refused to hear the case, and the sixth time since 2001.

The Schindlers "can know they have done everything possible under the law in letting government know that they wanted to fight for the life of their daughter," Gibbs said.

In his Supreme Court filing, Gibbs and other lawyers for the parents wrote that removing the tube represented "an unconstitutional deprivation of Terri Schiavo's constitutional right to life."

The Supreme Court's rejection came hours after the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia, rejected the parents' petition 9-2. That court denied three similar requests from the parents last week.

In a concurring opinion of the Atlanta court's latest ruling, Judge Stanley Birch said Congress "chose to overstep constitutional boundaries" by passing a law to force the Schiavo case into federal courts.
Judges Gerald Tjoflat and Charles Wilson dissented, with Tjoflat writing that the Schindlers deserved a hearing on the merits of their argument.

On March 21, three days after Schiavo's feeding tube was removed, Congress passed a bill transferring jurisdiction of the case from Florida state court to a U.S. District Court, for a federal judge to review. President Bush signed it into law the next day. But federal courts refused to overturn the state courts' decision.

2002 videotapes released
The Pinellas County Probate Court has released nine of 11 videotapes of Terri Schiavo recorded in the summer of 2002 and shown in a Florida appeals court hearing on her medical condition.

The videos show several doctors talking to and examining Schiavo to get ready for their court testimony. The tapes were recorded from July to September 2002.

Family members, including her mother and husband, also appear in the video.

Two of the 11 tapes remain sealed by the court, but it was unclear why.

In October 2002, Florida's 2nd District Court of Appeal heard a week of testimony from five doctors who examined her, including two picked by Michael Schiavo, two by her parents and one picked by the court.

Three doctors, including one appointed by the court, testified that Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. The two doctors selected by the Schindlers testified they thought she could recover.
The appellate court concurred with a lower court decision that Schiavo had no hope of recovery and that her feeding tube could be removed.

Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage because of lack of oxygen.

Her husband has said she suffered from bulimia, an eating disorder, that resulted in a potassium deficiency that triggered the heart failure.

CNN's Ninette Sosa, Bob Franken, Rich Phillips and Susan Candiotti contributed to this report.




We are one, our cause us one, and we must help each other if we are to succeed. ~ Frederick Douglass

Post Edited (morea) : 3/31/2005 8:05:56 PM GMT

[morea]

after all of the news coverage, I feel like I knew the people involved. http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/shakehead.gif

at least this poor woman is at peace now.

We are one, our cause us one, and we must help each other if we are to succeed. ~ Frederick Douglass

[DivineDesign]

its sad..but she's much better off in my opinion... :)

"BAN!"

Today I begin to understand what love must be, if it exists.... When we are parted, we each feel the lack of the other half of ourselves. We are incomplete like a book in two volumes of which the first has been lost. That is what I imagine love to be: incompleteness in absence.

[Magnus]

Do you think they should have killed her with a lethal injection then? I do...but society would freak out because we'd sooner let someone suffer than ease their passing. I wonder why? Was it religion that gave us this goofy angle on life?

"Sometimes I do what I want...most of the time, I do what I have to." (Cicero, from "Gladiator")

"There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path." (Morpheus, from"The Matrix")


"It's not cheating if you win...do what you have to do, but don't sacrifice your own honour in the process." (Taken from my iaido instructor, and modified by me)

"I am serving my time in hell on earth...at the job I am currently employed at." (Magnus, about his job)

[uncle carbunkle]

if they were going to let her die, they should of had a smother party a long time ago.

::Don't call me Foreman, for I am your Boss::

[morea]

I would sooner take a lethal injection or other assisted suicide type death over two weeks of starvation and dehydration.

We have the option of euthanizing our pets to keep them from suffering, how is this so different?

We are one, our cause us one, and we must help each other if we are to succeed. ~ Frederick Douglass

[DivineDesign]

i'll be damned if i stay alive for 15 years from some damn tubes.




"BAN!"

Today I begin to understand what love must be, if it exists.... When we are parted, we each feel the lack of the other half of ourselves. We are incomplete like a book in two volumes of which the first has been lost. That is what I imagine love to be: incompleteness in absence.



Post Edited (DivineDesign) : 3/31/2005 7:24:21 PM GMT

[MD]

I totally agree about assisted suicide.

When Jack Kevorkian was in the news a few years back it was the republicans that stated that shot down assisted suicide and stated that removal of the feeding tube was the right way to go. Now they are all camped out in front of the hospice protesting because removal of the feeding tube is cruel and inhumane.

Focking Hypocrites.

Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.

[morea]

I'm not making a judgement call on the life support issue... just saying that if it were me, and it was clear that I were going to die from lack of life support, I'd rather go peacefully to sleep and never wake up than to linger for days.

We are one, our cause us one, and we must help each other if we are to succeed. ~ Frederick Douglass

[Kool]

So if you go to Dr Kevorkian and you live, could you sue him for malpractice?

Sound advice I recieved from my 2 1/2 year old granddaughter:

'Grandpa, don't eat the popcorn bones'

[Drorain]

yah all those damn republicans...oh yeah and jessie jackson too


(lets try and avoid politics, this is about a family facing a tough decision)

http://www.grivakisgraphics.com/images/img_logomark.jpg

"OH what a big man you are!...Let me buy you a pack of gum, I'll show ya how to chew it..."

~Al Pacino, Glen Gary Glenn Ross

[morea]

I don't really think that this should have been a political situation at all. I don't think that it was really the government's place to get involved, although I can sort of understand how the desperation that the family was feeling could move them to try almost anything.

I guess I don't understand why the government really has any say over doctor assisted suicide, either.


Bit I also agree with whatDr. Albert Schweitzer said years ago, "I am life which wills to live, in the midst of life which wills to live. As in my own will-to-live there is a longing for wider life and pleasure, with dread of annihilation and pain; so is it also in the will-to-live all around me, whether it can express itself before me or remains dumb.


The will-to-live is everywhere present, even as in me. If I am a thinking being, I must regard life other than my own with equal reverence, for I shall know that it longs for fullness and development as deeply as I do myself.


Therefore, I see that evil is what annihilates, hampers, or hinders life. And this holds true whether I regard it physically or spiritually. Goodness, by the same token, is the saving or helping of life, the enabling of whatever life I can to attain its highest development."

We are one, our cause us one, and we must help each other if we are to succeed. ~ Frederick Douglass

Post Edited (morea) : 3/31/2005 7:57:44 PM GMT

[Drorain]

that is a wise doctor

http://www.grivakisgraphics.com/images/img_logomark.jpg

"OH what a big man you are!...Let me buy you a pack of gum, I'll show ya how to chew it..."

~Al Pacino, Glen Gary Glenn Ross

[uncle carbunkle]

i just can't fail to see the irony of the debate to remove a feeding tube from a woman who suffered her brain damage as a result of heart failure that was caused by an eating disorder.

it's as if somebody, somewhere has a twisted sense of humour. or poetic justice. or something.

sheesh.

::Don't call me Foreman, for I am your Boss::