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I'm doing a flier for a comany who is going to be holding a seminar. They are constantly changing the dates that they had me put on their flier. Honestly, I've probably made about 15 changes. These are changes that have nothing to do with design. It's all about them and making up their minds. I just heard that they handed the flier over to ANOTHER DESIGNER for HIM to make changes to it! I can't even fathom why they would do this, considering, I'd stop everything I was doing to get their changes to them WITHIN 5 minutes of them asking.I haven't started charging for each change yet, but after this...I'm seriously considering.
Patrick Shannon
04-10-2005, 09:06 PM
That's why typesetting/time for the project is charged for each additional minute, it reminds them that 'time is money' and that they'll spend a lot less money if they make up their minds.
Something I do at the copy shop is whenever I finish something, unless a.) it's been stated absolute rush (though customers often lie about it) or b.) I really like and work well with the client, I don't fax off the changes right away. I'll continue to hold the project up to a day sometimes, because if they know that changes won't be shot back 'that' quickly, then hopefully they'll stop to think something through before faxing back more changes. If they know they'll be waited on hand and foot, they'll likely waste more of your time since they know they can get something back so quickly.
Patrick Shannon
'Dear valued customer, go home and die. Signed, your friendly graphic artist.'
http://www.patrickshannon.com/mwwc_sm.gif
My War With Culture (http://www.mywarwithculture.com)
Political incorrectness reinvented.
Yup, there are a lot of ways to handle this and I suspect a lot of people struggle with it. I know I do. I worship people that handle this really really well. lol MY HEROS!
I've gotten better with my contracts and educating the client in advance, just for this reason. You never know when a project is going to stretch into infinity because of indecisive, unorganised clients. So, gotta protect yourself. It's a struggle, because sometimes it's easier to just throw in a simple 5 minute change than to go through the hassle of telling the client it's going to cost $X dollars per minute to accomodate their request, and then ya have to track that time, send the bill, take it to the bank and deposit it, etc. Whaatttaa pain.
In my contracts, I allow for a certain number of revisions. I also take the time to define for the client what a 'round of revision' is (for example, there may be multiple requests within a round, etc.) versus revisions that come after the design is approved. After they've signed off? Then any revisions that come after that are 'additional' and there is a cost associated.
I am as specific as I can be, and tell them an example of an 'additional revision' might be 'I changed my mind about the date, can you correct that for me?'
Then, I set somewhat of a flat rate for 'additional revisions'. A simple change is $X dollars, a medium change is $X dollars and complex changes (requiring going back to the drawing board after the design has already been approved) is charged at my $X hourly rate.
It's interesting, when you take the time in advance to spell all this out, how much more careful people are and considerate of your time. Only when you get in the habit of being overly helpful (and giving away your time and services for free to please them and their unorganized ways) do people get really out of hand and start taking advantage.
They need to understand the process and that takes a little education about how YOU like to work. That, you will give them plenty of time to collaborate with you, request revisions, etc. -- but once they start 'changing their mind' after a certain point, then the cost will increase. I feel that at some point, it's only fair that THEY take responsibility.
Can't say I am a master at this technique, I still find myself in these situations, but at least if I feel I am being taken advantage of ... I've got all this handy paperwork here to refer them back to, with a simple reminder -- 'Just so you're aware, we're at *this* stage in the project so additional work will be an extra charge. If you want to take some time to think about it so that we're not running up the bill, I am happy to give you time to consider all the changes you need.'
EC said...
It's interesting, when you take the time in advance to spell all this out, how much more careful people are and considerate of your time. Only when you get in the habit of being overly helpful (and giving away your time and services for free to please them and their unorganized ways) do people get really out of hand and start taking advantage.
Great statement EC, just do everything she says above JB. The only thing I would add is that I like to include a running total on my proof label. Off to the side of where they sign the proof I include the former total, what this particular change cost them and the new total. You wouldn't bill each change individually. You have to charge for them though, this is real money. I give them 3 freebies then it's 15 bucks each for small changes, more if they want major re-vamps.
Personally in a freelance capacity, I love it when they make lots of stupid little changes. Why should I object to making more money on a job. If I can make $15 for changing a date woohoo. /DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/biggrin.gif In business it's not your goal to save your clients money, it's your goal to get as much of your clients money as you can. /DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/cool.gif
Sound advice I recieved from my 2 1/2 year old granddaughter:
'Grandpa, don't eat the popcorn bones'
Keyare
04-11-2005, 03:06 AM
'In business it's not your goal to save your clients money, it's your goal to get as much of your clients money as you can.'
I gotta keep that in mind sometimes...
Very awesome, everyone, I feel SO much better about my future jobs.
You're all wonderful
I've never been in the situation where another designer is given my work to make more changes to. Have any of you run into that situation?
What kind of files are you giving them that another designer CAN work on them? No one but you should be doing anything to these files until they have paid for them.
Sound advice I recieved from my 2 1/2 year old granddaughter:
'Grandpa, don't eat the popcorn bones'
Ugh...very true. I seem to be learning everything the hard way. Even though they're 'friends', I should have known better not to give them a finished product until they've paid. I sent them a PDF.
Patrick Shannon
04-11-2005, 09:25 AM
JB: I'm always having to clean up everyone else's mess...but that's not 'exactly' the same thing....
Patrick Shannon
'Dear valued customer, go home and die. Signed, your friendly graphic artist.'
http://www.patrickshannon.com/mwwc_sm.gif
My War With Culture (http://www.mywarwithculture.com)
Political incorrectness reinvented.
greyghost
04-11-2005, 11:36 PM
Patrick Shannon said...
JB: I'm always having to clean up everyone else's mess...but that's not 'exactly' the same thing....
Bwahaha - me too! I just landed a new newspaper freelance job. They're sending me all their new ads and any that they can 'spruce up' without insulting their artist too much. Their artist is a joke! These ads are HORRIBLE - I mean clipping paths with black outlines, /DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/freaked.gif lack of typography skills, and she likes clip art apparently (I hate clip art - it has its place, but I avoid it if I can). I have four on my desk right now and as I opened each one, I just laughed. /DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/rofl.gif
when it comes to certain clients, remind yourself:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I'm an ARTIST, not a MAGICIAN!
Ok, I just got the full story of everything that was going on. It seems I accidently blew things out of proportion. They gave me the job to begin with because their designer was crap. I did their flier for them and then made a lot of changes. Then my hubby who works for them was diagnosed with cancer, so they thought they'd stop asking me to do things so they gave my stuff to the other designer so he could continue changing dates for them. I feel so much better now... I suppose I should have just laid off from posting anything at all tilI had the full story...shame on me!
greyghost
04-12-2005, 12:42 AM
You didn't know at the time. Don't feel bad - we artists are so accustomed to being stepped on that being defensive comes naturally. Don't worry about it.
I hope your hubby will be okay?
Mine gave me a scare Friday, speaking of blowing out of proportion. He was driving here from FL, a 7 hour trip, and I knew he had left at 4pm, so I expected him around 11 or 11:30. Bad traffic: maybe 12:30. He was also supposed to call me on the way.
Well, 12:30 rolled by
so did 1:30
so did 2:30. And I started panicking. I couldn't raise him on the cell phone, I started trying that at 5pm. So I called the State Troopers, found out you have to call COUNTY BY COUNTY to see if there has been any accidents. BUT, in big counties like Cobb around Atlanta, they always have accidents, so they expect you to call every hospital. Then finally one suggested I just file a missing persons report. So I did, at 3:oo am
The cop left at 3:15
My hubby rolled in at 3:30.
Really bad traffic, and his phone was dead, and he just wanted to get here, didn't want to call on a pay phone! Dork.
when it comes to certain clients, remind yourself:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I'm an ARTIST, not a MAGICIAN!
Oh my goodness! I would have freaked out just as bad as you did! My first thought when I can't reach my hubby is to call all the local hospitals, police departments, etc... I'm glad I'm not the only worry wort wife out there. http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/thumbsup.gif
My husband is doing great. He basically had a 2 week, 6 day battle with cancer, and now it's gone! (after surgery of course.) Modern medicine never ceases to amaze me! Come to think of it, My husband never ceases to amaze me, either!
greyghost
04-12-2005, 01:11 AM
I am glad you hubby is okay - that's awesome! Must have given you quite a scare too!
I was scared to death - and BAWLING for those last two hours. We just moved to GA, I don't know many people here, our house is a remodeling project (the previous people were pigs! I STILL can't get the bad odors out of here!) And while I can do a LOT of remodeling things, there are some things I am physically not strong enough to do by myself. So here I am thinking my husband is dead or hurt somewhere along a 500 mile stretch of Interstate, I have no way of locating him, I don't know anybody in this town, and I live in a sh!thole that I'm going to have to redo myself somehow!
We have one of the best marraiges ever created - he's my friend and my partner in everything we do - we plan our lives together, we LOVE remodeling, I love his sense of humor and am amazed at some of the stuff he knows (he says that about me too). We rarely disagree on anything. And he understands things about like, family, that can be touchy.
So yes, I was FREAKING out. I had one of our dogs hiding in a corner because she's never seen me bawling like that, and the other just wanted me to hold her (she's a little big tho).
when it comes to certain clients, remind yourself:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I'm an ARTIST, not a MAGICIAN!
JB, I am glad your husband is ok, and I am glad you feel better about the whole situation. :)
Thanks EC and Grey!
I just moved to LA about a year and a half ago. It took us a long time to get me a cell phone...just cause we put stuff off so much. Anyway, I was supposed to meet my mother in law and these really neat gardens. I drove around for about 2 or 3 hours, bawling because I couldn't find a payphone (everyone has cells now, so I guess they just took them all out) I kept stopping at different place of business asking how to get to these gardens. Everyone gave me a different set of WRONG directions! For the life of me, I couldn't remember my hubby's phone number. I must have been the panic that was making me forget. So I just drove until I remembered his number. I pulled in at a tire shop, asked if I could make a phone call. After driving around lost for 2 or 3 hours, I was FURIOUS with my hub for not getting around to getting me a cell. So I got on the phone, called him an said (through tears) "Call your mom. Tell her I'm lost and I'm going home. And it's damn time you bought me a cell phone." I got home and 5 minutes later my mother in law (best MIL a girl could EVER ask for) was at the door saying, "Oh sweety are you ok?! Let me take you to lunch!" This all made me think...what did we ever do without cell phones? Before phones at all! Can you imagine how wives used to worry?
Grey...it's so awesome to hear people talk about their awesome marriages. Sadly, you just don't hear that anymore! I've got a marriage made in Heaven as well...oh MAN, I never even dared to dream of a husband like the one I have. Thanks for sharing!http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/DesktopModules/dotNetBB/emoticons/cheers.gif
greyghost
04-12-2005, 02:41 AM
I have a great MIL too. :) Isn't it great?
when it comes to certain clients, remind yourself:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I'm an ARTIST, not a MAGICIAN!
absofrigginlutely! It's something I was always concerned about. What my MIL was going to be like...you KNOW you're gonna love your husband, but in reality, HE'S not the only one you're marrying. He comes with a whole family attached! An awesome MIL makes all the difference in the world.