I'm an ARTIST. Not a ******ng PLUMBER!

[Image]

Not to my own defense, I am selfish, greedy, and whiney. I see everything as either black or white, and I have an extremely short fuse.

That said...

I am a graphic designer, and I'm good at what I do. I'm not too humble to say it. I HAVE ARTISTIC VISION AND I SELL IT TO YOU SO YOU CAN MAKE MORE MONEY.

Damnit this takes time. Effort. It sounds dramatic but I sweat and ache, stay up late and wake up early to create your IMAGE, the IDENTITY people will know you by. In this economy, and image can make you or break you. I am more creative, visual, spatial, and artistic than you, so you pay me to make you an image that will KEEP YOU OUT OF BANKRUPTCY...


I take PRIDE in what I do! Every job I create is ART. It's custom, it's unique, its powerful, it gets attention, it makes an impact, [/i]it makes you look good[/i]. I'm not pulling clogs of hair out of your ****ing drain. I'm not fixing your air conditioning, I'm not driving you around. I am crafting an IMAGE you will RUN YOU BUSINESS WITH for A VERY LONG TIME. I DON'T WANT TO BE PAID $39.00 AN HOUR.

Ugh. Sorry, but I just think I'm worht MORE than that! I am a professional and everyone wants to me to jump through hoops, stand on my head, and make something that gives anyone under 25 a heart attack, and they don't want to pay good money for it.

I turn down every job that would work out to less than $110.00 and hour. Worst part is is these ****ing LOWBALLERS. Amateur students and houswives who pirated a copy of photoshop and think they're artists, charging something like, $35.00 for a coporate identity package. The art turned out accordingly sucks, but it was cheap, and god damnit I have bills to pay.

I'm really tiring of this industry. Graphic designers, in the most part, are entirely underappreciated. Just cause I draw on a computer, doesnt make me a service contract worker. I'm not a secretary. I want to charge $750.00 for a corporate ID, and these lowballing amateurs and penny pinching printers I'm surrounded with are suffocating me to death. Being an artist sucks just as much, if not more, as it rules.


Fin.

[cjoe]

hmmmm, $39.00 an hour seems good for me even in Aussie money. But then again i live at home, have no kids or girlfriend or anything.

edit: also i'm not sure what the cost of living is in the US.

[Mitch Wood]

I turn down every job that would work out to less than $110.00 and hour.

Mmmmmmmmmmm....


Bob cryer... ;)

[benjo]

Damit Image, you tell em!!! I with you all the way, lets take this to the BANK!

[meugeniacc]

so how much money should a beginner get an hour?

[Patrick Shannon]

At first I thought you were nuts when you said $39 an hour was bad, but I was thinking about that in the wrong context. Oh yes, if I'm doing my own freelancing work that price would be absolutely pathetic.

[Kool]

Good rant :D

Chris Gee posted an article on this very subject yesterday. http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8984

[morea]

so how much money should a beginner get an hour?

that depends based on your experience and your location. Do yourself a favor, and check the "pricing" links here:

http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7892

also, if you can get your hands on a Graphic Artists Guild (GAG) Handbook... you can get a second hand one on eBay.

[Ghastly]

To be honest graphic design has long since lost it's lustre for me, (though I officially gave up yesterday) I started out as someone who could draw, learn't the software necessary to produce digital artwork that was comparable to my physical work, went to college because no one told me that my skills would be abused, worked my ass off trying to print the s**t that wannabe GDer's make, and for what?....99% of the world isn't a graphic designer and thinks that what we do is *artsy-fartsy* 90% of those that think they're graphic designers are s**t, 8.9% of the remaining 10 have to put up with the s**t that 99.9% of the world throw at em, 1% are either extremely good or lucky bast**ds and finally the .1% of people like me are screwed.

It is the industry that everyone thinks they understand on some level, the industry that all aspiring artists try and get a piece of. I *really* wish that someone had told me that my skills would have a beter application in tech drawing or engineering, I would be one less person applying for your jobs (that isn't to say I'm a crap GDer just that I hate all the s**t )

*edit* The bit where you say that you can make things that would make an under 25 year old have a heart attack is a bit difficult for me to swallow...you would be surprised at the number of jobs that have been thrown at me because no one else could be trusted to do it...I'm 24, still breathing, and have advanced way beyond slapping filters on photos like the majority of people my age do.

[meugeniacc]

thank you morea

[steve-o]

In my time covering the industry, reading the forums, talking to "industry leaders", etc. the problem I see is how designers define themselves.

While I believe graphic design can be a form of art, the service you offer clients is not art.

The problem I see is that we've been conditioned by those who control society and make culture to value art higher than craft. Stop it. Art is a way to express oneself. We should not equate art with greatness. There are plenty of crappy artists.

People would love a job that pays them to express themselves, but this is like having your cake and eating it too. Artists can't just slap on the "designer" label and expect to get paid for their work. This is unrealistic.

Artistic self expression is NOT the sole hallmark or goal of acceptable design. First and foremost, being an even competent designer means consistently and effectively communicating a client's message in an interesting and appealing way to customers/consumers. Being able to do this at least requires knowledge of design tools and principles, problem solving skills (a.k.a creativity and imagination), and always taking pride in your work, not just in the concept but in the execution too.

What designers need to do is not try and escape the label of craftman or serviceman, but feel like what they do is just as valuable as, if not more valuable than, art.

Don't worry. Originality will always exist in your work, no matter how demanding the client.

BTW, a good plumber can make over $100/hr, so don't knock it. And many of the same things that make a good designer make a good plumber, and I don't value one higher than the other. They both deserve equal respect.

[isitworthit?]

Image. I am SO with you on this one. Designers are without a doubt THE most under-appreciated professionals around.

We are viewed simply as "clericals" who happen to know specialty software. The pay matches this ridiculous perception - despite the fact that we are creative, very organized, know TONS of software, and actually CARE about the work. It's like 6 jobs rolled into 1.

I also freelance, and turn down low paying jobs. Until more designers do the same - our pay rate is going to continue to be rock-bottom. Every day, I keep thinking I want out of this field soon. I'm tired of being treated like some blue-collar worker. It's not very rewarding any more and the pay s*cks.

[Image]

Kool:

Thanks for the link! I breifly read through it, but yesterday the printer I work for full time decided I can't charge package and per-job rates anymore, rather he's gonna pay me by the hour, so reading that post today has much more effect on me.

Steve-O:

Thanks, you really opened up a new perspective for me. I really shouldn't look at it as "art" per say, but rather an extremely delicate and difficult skill that few master. My bad about the plumber thing, I guess that was probably a bad analogy.


The dillemma of the by-hour deisgner:

I take lots of time with every job. I go over all angles, test out all layouts and possible color schemes, set numerous appointments for photographs, consultation, etc. That's why I always charged flat rate, there is an extreme amount of labor in my work, and working the hourly would be retarded. I'm not being paid to design something, I'm being paid for the design. Looking at it as a product makes it much more valuable than a service.

However, working hourly: Some jobs are gold, you charge flat rate but the inspiration comes to you immediately, you craft something gorgeous and get paid for an hour or so's work. This, as you all know, is one of the most enjoyable gems of being an artist, and everyone's trying to take it away. Being paid hourly, that's no longer rewarding. The more quickly I finish the job, the less I get paid.

On the other hand, some jobs take much care, love, work, and tweaking to get just right. Eventually after much labor something wonderful is born and everyone can enjoy (in the same way you can enjoy a quick job) the fruits of your labor. Again, they're trying to strip me of my joy. Working hourly, if I take my time doing a solid job something that some ******* printer sees as "just a logo with some numbers and stuff next to it," I get fired!

Why won't anyone let me ENJOY what I do???

Isitworthit said it best. Everyone is trying to take all the reward out my industry.


Now, I turned down the hourly job, AGAIN. I only work freelance because I get paid and can work with clients who DO appreciate my talent and who don't mind paying for it, but it doesnt always come so easily. I can't tell the printer "you're insulting every graphic designer by offering me that measly pay, I won't take it" because some lowballing BITCH will just come along and accept the price, if not do it for cheaper.

Everyone thinks they can be a graphic designer. Why can't a few of us just have and control it? Christ. I can't demand prices, I can't throw my weight around, I can't play hardball because of all these ignorant amateurs cutting my, your, our legs off and destroying the industry.


Thanks for the support everyone. It's good to see others are in my position.

[cbscreative]

Oh the irony. We strive to help clients make lots of money and they want us to starve. Back when I started this, before computer graphics, at least some talent was required. I welcomed the computer while at the same time became horrified by the onslaught of cheap art and wholesale visual pollution.

I agree that the artist has always been under-appreciated. Now the job is even less fair because as stated above, you need to know a lot of software. The same expertise in other fields will make you a lot more money.

So what is an artist to do? I already took my sabbatical by getting out for a few years. So why am I back? Because I enjoy it. I started doing web design in 1999, and that field has lowballers too. The solution will be different for everyone, but here are a few thoughts.

Begin to think about all the talents you actually have. As a graphic designer, you are part computer technician, part marketing specialist, and several other skills are required. I see Image that you have hands on printing experience. I wish everyone who calls themselves a graphic artist did. These skills need to be part of your marketing.

What I am about to say may seem like sacrilege to graphic artists, but take the emphasis off the design. You don't have to throw away your talent, keep doing what you do, but realize the world could care less. What is it we really do. Is it not branding, visual identity, and other creative services? Sell the service not the product.

A little attitude seems to already be there for most of us, let's keep focused. Those who shop the deal will soon disappear, those who provide the deal will also disappear, and both will be replaced by a new breed of competitors who will also disappear. If we are in this for the long haul, we will always face this cycle. If only there was no one to take their place once they are gone, we would all be able to eat.

Since it does not work that way, we need solutions. I don't have all the answers, but I have found things that work. Build relationships with the clients you do have. You will get referrals, and they will be less likely to go someplace where the only service is glorified clip art. Provide marketing and ideas, not just design. For example, if you create a logo, don't let the client get a flyer where the only thing on the cover is the logo. Tell them they need a teaser on the cover if they want people to open it.

Learn to craft words as much as you craft graphics. Many artists make the mistake of believing that their graphics are more important than they really are. Most people notice text more than graphics. It is our job to grab attention with graphics, but if you can add more meaning with text, do it. We are promoting, not doing fine art. Fine art and promotional art are separate fields in almost all cases.

It is one thing to wow your client with a great looking design. Their pride in their own company will make them want a knockout visual design. It is another thing to wow the market and make that design really perform. Why would anyone in their right mind spend $50 on a design with no profit if a $500 design or a $5000 design makes money right away? If your client knows the difference, they will respond.

I said it above, but I will close by saying it again, sell the service, not the product.

Steve
www.cbscreative.com (http://www.cbscreative.com)

[morea]

If Other Businesses Were Like Graphics (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5726)

[Patrick Shannon]

Image:

Do it this way....if you create something that you really like (something that better employers want to see) and the client wants to turn it into crap, save a copy of the good one for yourself and proceed with bad one as usual. That original is YOUR design...something different... and there are graphics studios (and clients as a freelancer, albeight rare) that truly understand what you can do and will completely appreciate seeing your own vision. Use your original designs for your portfolio/collection, no idiot client can take that away from you.

Oh, and make the client promise not to put your name or associate you with the bad design.

[Ghastly]

What do you say to a client that is buzzing with pride & elation at the way you did as you were told and slapped a 100% yellow starburst with 100% magenta SALE on top of their 72dpi jpeg Hi-fi? I hated not being able to roar with laughter in their faces and tell em they were complete and utter di*kheads

[uncle carbunkle]

and if you've ever used a plumber, lawyer, hairdresser, doctor or mechanic, they've probably felt the same about you.

that's where the business skills come in. i'll admit that it's not my favorite part of the job, but i'd rather be the csr or sales person that have to deal with them (read: why i freelance).

[morea]

^ yes Alex, what is: "why I feel like a moron every time I go to the mechanic".

I'll take palindromes for $400.

[steve-o]

"Why would anyone in their right mind spend $50 on a design with no profit if a $500 design or a $5000 design makes money right away? If your client knows the difference, they will respond."

Well, I don't think anyone really knows if a design -- good or bad -- will make money right away.

However, I think it is up to the designer to be able to sell his or her services --- make the client know the difference. This is where knowledge of design comes in, rather than relying on raw artistic talent.

Can you explain to a client logically and rationally why brown and pink is a good or bad choice for his logo or why comic sans should or shouldn't be used, etc. etc.?

I'm sure some of you can, and maybe some of you cannot.

Clients don't want to rely on your gut instinct and artistic intuition. How can a client rely on you creating a design to communicate his message if you are having trouble communicating with him? I think many clients are willing to listen and pay as long as you show them you know what you are talking about.

I interviewed Tony Calabro, the director of Creative Services for Pfizer Global Research & Development and head of Communications for Global Operations. As someone who hires freelance and in-house designers, he said:

I need to understand how they think more than anything at that point. They can have everything above, but if they just "happen" to come up with good ideas...that's not enough for me. I need to understand why they put everything where they put it and what it means to the final communication to the end user. Is it there for window dressing, or does it help communicate the ideas.

http://thecreativeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126

Even the least design aware client would benefit from this kind of knowledge.

Just my two cents.

[Ghastly]

Now, I turned down the hourly job, AGAIN. I only work freelance because I get paid and can work with clients who DO appreciate my talent and who don't mind paying for it, but it doesnt always come so easily. I can't tell the printer "you're insulting every graphic designer by offering me that measly pay, I won't take it" because some lowballing BITCH will just come along and accept the price, if not do it for cheaper.

Everyone thinks they can be a graphic designer. Why can't a few of us just have and control it? Christ. I can't demand prices, I can't throw my weight around, I can't play hardball because of all these ignorant amateurs cutting my, your, our legs off and destroying the industry.



Tis already a Lords & Vassals state of affairs that haunts graphic design, many of the lords despise us vassals because we do not have good breeding, (lowballers) and insult their greatness. The few vassals that have what it takes to be lords have to get there by keeping their mouths shut and crawling through mud.

Basically what I'm saying is that 6.4 billion people have never met me, none of them give a shit what I'm capable of...it is impossible for me to walk up to someone and expect a fair rate based on my skill and talent...I don't have the charismatic personality to convince a penny pincher that he should respect my abilities. If I ever decide to go freelance It would be necessary to accept a few piss-takes in order to garner a reputation.

[uncle carbunkle]

...it is impossible for me to walk up to someone and expect a fair rate based on my skill and talent...I don't have the charismatic personality to convince a penny pincher that he should respect my abilities.

and that is exactly why not everyone can succeed as an independant or a freelancer. if you can't sell, you can't sell. it's the business side of things that i suspect many would-be designers don't think about, and that's what gets them into trouble.

[Ghastly]

I have not yet turned my hand to freelancing but am well aware of my lousy selling abilities...does not make me any less capable of producing good work however.

[JaCkinbOx]

I think as graphic designers, we should have instincts for how to find and bag our own clients -- at least one. If we can't do that, we should consider if this is really the profession for us. Just because we may think our work is godly doesn't mean everyone else is going to.

On a related matter, I do struggle to understand how much compensation I can reasonably get out of my clients without them taking offense to it. At the moment, I'm undercharging. I know that for a fact. But I can get clients pretty easily because of that. However, I too need to make a good living. I haven't spent the majority of my life honing my valuable skills just so it can be disrespected and shot to hell.

[Image]

The few vassals that have what it takes to be lords have to get there by keeping their mouths shut and crawling through mud.[/color]

...If I ever decide to go freelance It would be necessary to accept a few piss-takes in order to garner a reputation.

A excellent observation that, when obtained by a "vassal," puts them leaps and bounds in front of others to achieve "lordship."

Despite all my compaining, I still make a -pretty good- living. Could be better, I'm still young, I'm still learning. But working solely as a freelance artist, I have gotten to where I am, developed my respectable client base and a portfolio I'm extremely proud of because when I first started actually gave work away.

I kept this away from lowballing, though, because I did it in cyclical cycles. Not charging for certian jobs that came through withing a 10 day period, and then charging. I also kept the no-charge to friends, or friends of friends. I didn't threaten the market too much, and was able to build a reputation (though it was so difficult financially).

[Ghastly]

Tis making the correct first impression where I suffer...in many situations I have found people following me as a leader where I have not asked them to. This only happens once I am comfortable in my surroundings. Without any previous clients, approaching strangers is uncomfortable...once a proveable client base has been built the ordeal would be far less painful.

In order to get these clients I would be forced to accept pay that is unworthy of the service I can provide.

Most of you hate lowballers (I am not one yet simply because I haven't yet taken the freelance route) I understand why, but I also understand why for some it is necessary.

[Robin Finnell]

I don't know about many of you, but I find some of the posts in this thread incredibly elitist. I can understand that people want to be reasonably paid for their services, but it sounds like some people feel they are better than most and that's a scary place to be. Nuthin' like pride before the fall, eh? ;^P

As I'm learning, 90% of the time, y'just gotta take off the DIVA faux-fur coat and put on the Wal-Mart vest and give the client what they want. If you design something better and they want a POS, file your masterpiece away for that client who says "YOU'RE the designer" cuz those are everyone's favourite type of client! 8^D

BTW, those "Wal-Mart" production clients are usually the ones who give you the highest accolades to their business friends.

Freelance is NOT for antisocials or faint of heart... it is for people who can design AND sell AND schmooze AND take responsibility for their own accounting. I am learning this the hard way, from the ground up, and no one who knows me IRL would EVER say that I'm antisocial. I'm not faint of heart, either, but working for yourself is TOUGH.

Now personally, I think that $795 for a logo is horribly overpriced, but I'll admit right now that i don't know who the client is or what the poster's "identity package" entails. Most of my clients are small businesses and would go to templatemonster.com and buy a (not unique) logo template there WAY before paying that kind of price.

Yes, we're here to make our clients look good. Yes, we know color harmonics, unity, flow, negative space and all that jazz, but my mechanic also knows WAY more about my car than I do, and he still makes only $32/hr., no matter if it's simple brake work or a blown head gasket. Yet without him I cannot get to my clients when my "_X_" needs repairing. What keeps me at this mechanic is not his knowledge, I can get that anywhere, but his people skills and NOT making me feel stupid because I'm a woman and don't know every gizmo on my vehicle inside and out and how they interact with each other.

IMO, we should not be beating up fellow GA's (despite their shortcomings, I'm sure none of us here are perfect). People will charge whatever the market will bear, be it high or low. If you're not getting work for what you're charging and some "housewife with a pirated version of Photoshop" is, instead of simply insulting her, maybe you should re-examine your pricing structure. I'll tell you right now, the "housewife" (arrgh!) who's getting your jobs isn't thinking about you, she's working and making money.

Most GAs had their "hey day" during the dot com era. Now it's time for a reality check. The economy sucks, but it's getting better, and last time I checked, this was still a capitalistic society who encourages entrepeneurs, is it not?

Pax,

[Image]

Now before I start, I know some people around here can get a little *too* personal about things, so I wanna say I am NOT arguing or sayin you're wrong, Robin. I just wanted to touch upon places wher eyou might be misunderstanding me.

Now personally, I think that $795 for a logo is horribly overpriced.

How much did ESPN pay for their logo? How much did the IPA pay for their logo (I happen to know, I did it). How much did Coca Cola pay for their new Product identity? How about The Met? Or The Mets? Is it still overpriced when they pay 20, 50, 100, 500 thousand for ONE logo? Why or why not? This is taken out of context, I know. Of course you guage and change prices based on the client ("feeling out" is a skill every GD has to learn if they want to freelance), however, there is a concrete bottom the lowballers sink below and no absolute top that can be accurately judged.


Yes, we're here to make our clients look good. Yes, we know color harmonics, unity, flow, negative space and all that jazz, but my mechanic also knows WAY more about my car than I do, and he still makes only $32/hr.

Am I wrong in thinking that creative design, especially high exposure, great longevity identity design is not blue collar work? I just think creative design is more valuable.


If you're not getting work for what you're charging and some "housewife with a pirated version of Photoshop" is, instead of simply insulting her, maybe you should re-examine your pricing structure.

To be honest, I can't believe a graphic designer would have such a self-destructive view of the industry. You're marking all of us down and stripping the value out of the talent. The IS a problem when poopy, worthless artwork goes to people chargin 1/100th the standard going rate. I don't wanna charge 35$ to design a business card. I won't do it. It's worth more. Just because someone who doesnt know anything, much less know better, is charging it doesnt mean I have to re-evaluate myself. I am the professional. Am I wrong?

And besides, they're dangerous: http://thecreativeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155

Most GAs had their "hey day" during the dot com era. Now it's time for a reality check.

Not necessarily true, IMO. The casinos follow the triple bid system and rule out the cheapest. Major corporations, advertising firms, and governments all do the same. Your whole post seems to severly cheapen the craft, which I think might, while on a very understandable grounds, be a little misplaced.


To your credit you definetly did provide a very humbling perspective that brought my rant a little more down to Earth; however, I think in the gray area between your extreme and mine is a more suitable answer.

[Kool]

http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif All I have to say about this is...

I think we may have a new candidate for most words per post in a thread. :D

[Robin Finnell]

Now before I start, I know some people around here can get a little *too* personal about things, (snip)

i'm sorry, i didn't mean to insinuate that i am the housewife with the pirated copy of Photoshop, but i'm not a downtown ad agency cronie (anymore). maybe i didn't distance myself enough from your analogy.

How much did ESPN pay for their logo? How much did the IPA pay for their logo (I happen to know, I did it). How much did Coca Cola pay for their new Product identity? How about The Met? Or The Mets? (snip)

here's where i will get a little on the personal side...

i don't have any of those types of $$$$$ clients. mine are more along the lines of "ABC Horse Farm" in Podunk, IN. are you saying that the logos i develop for them should cost just as much as the one the Leo Burnetts of the world charge Coca Cola? or are you saying that freelancers &/or independents aren't good enough to service that kind of client because they don't charge $795 for an "identity package" to a small business? or, maybe you're saying that freelancers (and their small biz clients) who are just trying to eek out a living in Middleofnowhere, USA and don't deserve to create anything that's effective & aesthetically nice because we're not willing to charge what you charge and are therefore, cheapening the industry?

you wanna talk about "cheapening the industry?" in my client demographic, i have to compete with the client's 13 year old cousin's kid who will draw a logo on the computer at home for their jr. high art class. i kid you not, no pun intended.

Am I wrong in thinking that creative design, especially high exposure, great longevity identity design is not blue collar work? I just think creative design is more valuable.

yes, IMO you're wrong. plumbers and mechanics have great skills and they also need to think creatively to successfully survive in their oversaturated industries, too. competition is harsh in almost every trade.

To be honest, I can't believe a graphic designer would have such a self-destructive view of the industry. You're marking all of us down and stripping the value out of the talent. (snip) I am the professional. Am I wrong?

you're a little full of yourself to believe that any skilled trade in the world takes less effort to perfect, IMO.

To your credit you definetly did provide a very humbling perspective that brought my rant a little more down to Earth; however, I think in the gray area between your extreme and mine is a more suitable answer.

i agree. i used to be like you. i used to make 90K per year back in the "good 'ol dot com days." then i got laid off from 3 dot coms, then i couldn't find steady work cuz the economy sucked, plus the fact that i had an elitist view and wouldn't take a 30K creative director job. then, miraculously, i got older, had 3 mouths to feed, a mortgage and a car payment to pay. and the truth is, i wasn't and still am not the only one. only time, age & experience brings wisdom. i wish i didn't take my dot com jobs for granted, but i did and now i have to do what it takes to feed my family. it's all good. you've got a great client base that pays far more than what my client base pays, but as long as i can pay my bills, i'm happy. if you want to say that i'm self-destructive and cheapening the industry, that's cool. i can take it. my mortgage co. doesn't care so long as i pay the bill. :)

pax,

[cbscreative]

LOL Kool. This certainly did generate discussion. Some of the better points are built around the idea of value pricing. Anyone out there collecting royalties for their work? That would be quite ideal. The example of the $35 business card is good. There is nothing wrong with getting well paid if you know your service is going to turn a profit. We should not have to insult the trade with such rates, but such will always be the case when neither the artist nor the client recoginize the value of what we do.

As for the economy, that is when we are needed the most. Everyone is trying to get what they can. Will you help your client, or just do it cheap so you can move on to the next customer?

Some great points were made about selling. That is not a dirty word. Actually, isn't that what we are supposed to be helping people do? If you can't sell, learn how. I didn't know how when I started either, but it is a great skill.

If you read any material on sales, if they use pitches, manipulation, or anything else that sounds like a used car lot (no offense to the good ones out there), burn it. Think of how you would respond if the techniques were used on you. You need to communicate a belief in your service, be confident, believe in yourself enough to charge what the service is worth. We all have to start somewhere, all of us have charged too little, but you can grow. If you can't, you will need to work for a boss who will charge enough so he can afford to pay you.

That's enough, now I am getting too long.

Steve
www.cbscreative.com (http://www.cbscreative.com)

[Image]

Robin,

No no no, I didn't suggest you were a housewife or anything (lol!), I just didnt want you to think i was rabidly attacking you because you said something that wasn't along the lines of "LiEk OMG u have SUCH a GoOd POInT can I LIEK....... HAVE YOUR BABIES???!?~~!?~!?~?!??!~!~****" Hah.

What you said all certainly makes sense. Actually, because of it I did accept that 39.00/hr job today. It makes sense. No one's saying I can't still do rediculously eexpensive freelance work, and even though I do "feel the customer out (a selling technique I learned form an older, very very successful GD)," I won't do a $35.00 business card. However, you brought up the point about (not word for word) "what happens to the little guy in Podunk, Nowhere?" Just because he doesn't neccessarily have the means to afford what *I* happen to think all graphic designers should universally charge and will bitch about if anyone (housewives included) charges less, does that mean he doesn't deserve one?

Hourly graphic designers and amateurs offer that guy the opportunity to get some graphics (even though they won't be as good as the poster that MGM paid me $2,000 for). Besides the fact that I have bills to pay (I can't believe it took someone ELSE saying it to me to make me realize it).

I STILL think I'm underappreciated/
I STILL think I'm worth more.
I'M STILL Bitter.
I'M STILL a big whiner.


...but at least I have a little more solid of a perspective.
What Steve said was perfect:

We all have to start somewhere, all of us have charged too little, but you can grow

I'm still new to the industry, I guess it still has some of it's elite glittery shine.

Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

[Robin Finnell]

"LiEk OMG u have SUCH a GoOd POInT can I LIEK....... HAVE YOUR BABIES???!?~~!?~!?~?!??!~!~****"
LMAO! :D

(I can't believe it took someone ELSE saying it to me to make me realize it).
oh hon, that's how i've learnt most of my life's lessons. i'm just tryin' to "pay it forward" every now and then. ;)


I STILL think I'm underappreciated/
I STILL think I'm worth more.
I'M STILL Bitter.
I'M STILL a big whiner.
well, if it makes you feel any better, i agree with you wholeheartedly and feel the same way, but the mortgage & electric co's don't give a sh*t if i feel that way or not, they just want their dough.

i wish you all the best. i had a GOOD day today because a "cold call" email to an out of date web site today got me a prepaid $175.00 1-color logo redo job. that will pay my cell phone bill. THAT sorta stuff makes me VERY happy.

take care,

[JaCkinbOx]

Starting out, I was only charging about $40 per basic project. Shocking when I discovered many of you charge about that much *per hour*. It forced me to re-evaluate what my work is worth, but I still haven't come to a conclusion on that.

[CHRISGEE]

This sounds like a case of the classic divide between small market and big market designers.

For Robin's market, $750 logos are "overpriced". In my market, my business would be in bankruptcy court if we ever did a project for so little money. To be sure, we can't even think about taking a web site project that costs less than $3K - $4k, not because we're elitist but simply because (a) the realities of our big city expenses don't allow it and (b) our combined skills and experience warrant higher pay. We're just perhaps more fortunate than other designers that we live in a market where we can charge that much for projects.

So it's a question of scale, relativity and economics rather than elitism on anyone's part. Also, the GAG handbook is a great resource to bring a bit of perspective with regard to pricing.

Robin, I understand what you mean about the dot-com boom humbling designers. But the dot-com boom humbled EVERYONE. Lawyers, accountants, bankers, ad agencies and many other professionals were greatly humbled by the sucky economy but I don't think that's a reason to lower your sense of worth. After all, it's the economy that sucks and not us.

I too had VERY high paying jobs during the dot com boom years. After 9/11, my agency laid-off most of it's employees and the next day after being laid-off, I started my firm. After making all the classic undercharging mistakes in the beginning, we finally learned that we had to learn to qualify clients better and find fewer clients for whom we could do a larger number of projects. Again, we're lucky enough to live in a market where such clients exist and are plentiful even in bad economic times.

I have no idea what it's like to be a designer in a small market. What I will say, though, is that designers in small markets are FAR more empowered than they were at this point 10 years ago. The same technological forces that have allowed work to be outsourced to India and China allows small market designers to compete outside of their own small market.

The Internet places small market designers around the corner from big market designers like me. Small market designers can now set up a website and using tools like FedEx, Skype, email, FTP, VPNs and perhaps occaisonal travel when absolutely necessary, they can compete for work all over the globe!

I think small market designers -- and designers in general -- need to recognize that the same global factors that have perhaps bitten them in the butt can also be used as tools to gain advantage. Designers routinely charge upwards of $75 to $100+ per hour here in NYC. I'm NOT proposing that small market designers compete in large markets with small market prices but rather that they up their prices and reap the benefits of the increased profitability due to their lower cost of living in small markets.

Perhaps small market designers should form virtual partnerships with big market designers? Opportunities abound. Our firm has done work for clients in countries we've never visited! And we're a small firm with 2 full-time employees and one part-timer located in Germany.

Anything is possible.

[Patrick Shannon]

http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif All I have to say about this is...

I think we may have a new candidate for most words per post in a thread. :D

NO! NO! No one will topple me, I say!