On design and personal bias.

[Image]

If you're a graphic designer (...please tell me you are), no, I'll start it another way.


I am thinking of developing a logo. For me. What do you guys suppose are the merits/downfalls of having someone else design your logo if you're a "professional" graphic artist.

I am almost certain I will have someone else do it. Iknow what's inside my head and I know what I'm doing at every step. I can't necessarily judge my own work entirely objectively because I drew it and will tend to think it looks okay (because I don't want to hurt my own feelings). On that same note, anything I think looks great I will always have to wwonder if I am giving my own work an extra bias.

On the other hand, if someone else comes up with something really great, it certainly can't go in MY portfolio, or what about the implications of having to tell a client someone ELSE did your logo?


Can someone weigh in on the matter?

[Mitch Wood]

I cannot believe you have just posted that.

Actually I can't believe many of your posts.

Please send me a link to your portfolio I think I would learn a lot for it.

[Ghastly]

I hear ya mitch :cool:
As a self respecting Illustrator and graphic designer I would *never* tout my wares under someone elses banner.

[Mitch Wood]

I hear ya mitch :cool:
As a self respecting Illustrator and graphic designer I would *never* tout my wares under someone elses banner.

Exactly.

Also though I find the biggest problem I have when solving a graphical problems such as an identification (because it isn't just about a pretty mark), is researching and getting on the same level as the client/target market and delivering their message with clarity.

After all it isn't about a pretty design, it is all about concept and projecting that concept well.

If you are the product then surely aren't you half way there as knowbody else knows you better than yourself...

This post just really confused me, as Image has worked on such large blue-chip accounts that this should be a stroll in the park.

[Vikia]

Image, if this is a serious post, I am worried for you in this line of work.

First, I would never put someone else's logo up as representing me if I am selling myself as a graphic designer. This is the first impression a potential client sees. I would feel as though I am lying to them. They are making decisions on who will best create their vision. If you don't have vision enough for your own identity...how can you possibly be the right person for the job.

Second, you had better not worry about getting hurt feelings ever. Better to grow a thicker skin and accept constructive criticism. You will be the one that MUST be honest with yourself and if you can't be, find someone who will be. Professionally, everyone you come in contact will be judging your work in some way: clients, their employees, their customers, printers, competitors, etc. etc.

[defjoe]

this is stupid.

I would never hire a designer that outsourced their own logo.

[steve-o]

Image,

I agree with the previous posts. Although, it might be an interesting experience being in the shoes of the client. Might give you a different perspective on the craft. :)

Seriously, put yourself in a client's shoes and imagine the following scenario: Tell a designer that you love his logo, and then react when he tells you he hired someone else to design it.

As a client, I would:

1) drop my jaw
2) ask you for the designer's name and contact info.

[uncle carbunkle]

ah, grasshopper:

there are two barbers in town and you desperately need a trim. you look in the window of the first shop and the barber has a shaggy, mis-shapen, abomination of a haircut (looks like a template *bahdoomboom*). when you look in the other shop, the barber has a head of hair that has been beautifully, tidily, and stylishly coiffured.

which barber do you go to?

[unc readjusts lotus position]

*aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhoooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmm*

[defjoe]

lotus position

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Kool]

Come on guys this was a legitimate question the overwhelming answer to which is you should do it yourself. But there are many circumstances in the professional world where the answer would be different. The example of the old saying "the Doctor/Lawyer who treats/represents himself has a fool for a client" comes to mind. In this case though a designer should do all their own stuff because it's all advertising for their own skills.

Unc you would pick the barber with the crappy haircut right? http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

[Mitch Wood]

ah, grasshopper:

there are two barbers in town and you desperately need a trim. you look in the window of the first shop and the barber has a shaggy, mis-shapen, abomination of a haircut (looks like a template *bahdoomboom*). when you look in the other shop, the barber has a head of hair that has been beautifully, tidily, and stylishly coiffured.

which barber do you go to?

[unc readjusts lotus position]

*aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhoooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmm*

Does the 'mis-shapen abomination' have a sexy assitant with big kahunas?

[morea]

you choose the guy with the shite hair cut, because the other guy is likely the one who cut his hair.

Actually, I can understand where this question is coming from, too. Because not every graphic designer is a logo designer.

If you *do* logo design for your clients, you probably want to design your own logo. But if you aren't a logo designer - for example, if you specialize in tie dying socks, or billboard design, or museum exhibits or illustration, there wouldn't be as much of an issue with having someone else design the logo.

[Ghastly]

I take PRIDE in what I do! Every job I create is ART. It's custom, it's unique, its powerful, it gets attention, it makes an impact, [/i]it makes you look good[/i]. I'm not pulling clogs of hair out of your ****ing drain. I'm not fixing your air conditioning, I'm not driving you around. I am crafting an IMAGE you will RUN YOU BUSINESS WITH for A VERY LONG TIME. I DON'T WANT TO BE PAID $39.00 AN HOUR.


Kool...I strongly respect your opinion, but as a *Graphic Designer*, (especially one who can command fees in the area of $110 per hour) it would be counter to our best interests and pride to let someone else design our identity. I am of the opinion that the nature of the original question was a faux-pas. In much the same way that a maths teacher should not be asking his pupils how to manipulate fractions.

*edit* I cannot command such fees btw

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

Actually, I have have designed logos for several other individuals who are graphic designers - and their area of expertise is not identity design. I think it's good that they realize their strengths and weaknesses in regards to design. The logos are very successful in drawing business their way. If a client needs a logo designed the designers recommend they contact me - and I suggest clients contact them for other design projects.

- J.

[uncle carbunkle]

Come on guys this was a legitimate question the overwhelming answer to which is you should do it yourself. But there are many circumstances in the professional world where the answer would be different. The example of the old saying "the Doctor/Lawyer who treats/represents himself has a fool for a client" comes to mind. In this case though a designer should do all their own stuff because it's all advertising for their own skills.

Unc you would pick the barber with the crappy haircut right? http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

y'see...that's why i thought it was interesting. i've been cutting my own hair for years, until this past march when it all went a little wrong.

then i found this great lady in koreatown who'll cut it for $10...

it's very grey, i say. very, very grey.

oh! not my hair. no grey in there at all.

[Mitch Wood]

Very true Jeff, but the point is...

...we are dealing with someone who at the age of 18 with no experience had designed a blue chip corporate identity worth more than $20,000.

[Ghastly]

I think my previous post needed to be backed up with a quote from the soap box so I edited it. Hopefully this will show my bone of contention

[Kool]

Kool...I strongly respect your opinion, but as a *Graphic Designer*, (especially one who can command fees in the area of $110 per hour) it would be counter to our best interests and pride to let someone else design our identity. I am of the opinion that the nature of the original question was a faux-pas. In much the same way that a maths teacher should not be asking his pupils how to manipulate fractions.

*edit* I cannot command such fees btw

Heh heh, point taken. http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

[Mynock]

I see both sides of the fence here. I agree in some respects it is like a plumber hiring someone to plumb his own bathroom. Using the same analogy, if the plumber specializes in heating and cooling systems then it is justified. So it just a matter of whether you are going consider yourself a logo designer or not.

The part of you post that bothers me the most is the fact you stated you're easy on yourself. I'm my own toughest critic. The problem I have is I never know quite when I am done, there is always something that bothers me or something I could add more to.

I'm either on to something or I'm on something. Which is it?

[Patrick Shannon]

The others have an extremely good point and I would listen to that (I personally would rather do my own logo), but another interesting way to look at it is this...sometimes you can be your own worst critic and worst enemy when it comes to designing something, no matter how good it appears to others.

[Broacher]

Anyone ever tried coaching their kid's sport team? Ugh. I'm a very patient and understanding kind of guy (stop that snickering Kool), and my kids and I get along great. But whenever I've actually tried to teach them something that I know well (basketball, swimming, computers, typing, etc.), they immediately get defensive or modify their behaviour to make it as difficult as possible. And I think I understand why.... any teaching relationship depends, to some degree, on a certain amount of what I'd call, 'role insulation'. Almost anyone attempting to learn a new skill does not need the added burden of 'fear of failure to someone I really love' added to the mix. Did I try and precondition and relax the expectation threshold? Yep. Did I try to encourage the 'let's just give it a try' positive attitude? Sure. But it didn't do a thing. Kids, well my kids anyhow, do not feel comfortable with me switching from my role as 'dad' to 'teacher'. And I've learned to respect this, and even support it.

I think the same thing can happen with designer's identity project. It's so easy to get 'too close' and nearsighted with your own expectations. A third party (that is, you, your graphic identity, and another designer) can often be the best solution. You need the perspective offered with a trianglular relationship that you can't get with an A-B one.

Ask Jeff Fisher (graphic identity designer extraordinaire) just how long it took HIM to work out his famous mark. If expediency is your issue, I would seriously consider contracting out to a third party you can trust-- maybe even offer a swap, if it could be arranged.

Barbers, eh? There are two brainsurgeons in town, both former neurology patients....



And what if the barber with the lousy haircut did it himself while looking in the mirror?

[Image]

I can't believe the kind of scathing resposes this post got.

Mitch Wood, just about everything you've said in this thread is entirely ungrounded.
I have no experience? What? With a portfolio now of 245 (or something) business cards, 10 full posters for MGM, over 30 corporate identites, 2 worldwide accounts, countless postcards and flyers, 40-50 Bus Shelters, another 50 banners, 2 van wraps. 2 of my own companies, a free and clear Graphtec 55'' vinyl plotter, a brand new, free and clear SEIKO 60'' Color Painter, experience in management and sales of 3 other companies, internships and shadows with firms and freelance designers who share pages in the same books Jeff Fisher is published in.

What the hell would you call experience? I learned this trade by being immersed in it, fool. Yeah, I'm 18. I work 14 hours a day with more work coming from Las Vegas' two largest printing companies than I can even handle. What do you get from looking at the things I post, and then bringing it here that "you can't believe the things I post," and where is this sh*t coming from? I'm not trying to brag, at all, I'm simply trying to give you a better perspective that you shouldn't say anything if you have no idea what the hell you're talking about, fool.

Oh, that's right. You don't know me.
That's really all I have to say on that matter. Go ahead and dissect my post into a million quotes with all your cleverly engineered refutations, they'll go entirely unresponded, I don't want to contaminate the thread with that. I know that whole bit will probably piss everyone off, everyone will do just that and tell me how I need to shut up. Let what will come, come, because that, Mitch, was childish.



---------

Other than that, I WAS ONLY ASKING FOR OPPINIONS! I was seeing if anyone else could recognize, much like I do, that every designer has design weaknesses. By getting input or ideas or design from other designers, does it seem logical that a designer could develop something they would have never come up with? Besides, when you have the idea, you think of how to build it, you watch yourself build it, and then it's done, it doesn't have the same surprise or appeal the client might feel when they just wait for a week or so an a bunch of logos are dropped in front of them.


I'm not saying it should be done. I'm not saying it shouldn't. OI was just saying I had thought of it, considered it, and wanted everyone to weigh in. Why are people attacking me as a designer for simply thinking of it? Don't worry about me in this line of work, I'm sure I'll be just fine. I thank the people who were a little more mature, Kool, morea, Patrick, Broacher, Jeff, etc, and offered some insight. I love hearing what you guys have to say about these topics. I'm glad boracher brought up the triangular relationship reference.


I guess I was looking at it as a "two heads are better than one" type of thing much like many of you. Plus, I think It would be kind of fun to be on the client side, and see something just *done rather than see it'[s production. I'm looking at it as an experience that might be a loss to miss.

[Broacher]

Gawd, I hate being accused of being 'mature'. [sigh]

Image, I think your point about the potential to 'see it from the client's side' is also a very strong point in favour of this solution. It's something we should try to do with every job, and the insight into this perspective alone would make the experience of outsourcing your identity very rewarding.

And apart from your spelling skills (just kidding, mine are pretty bad too!), I thought the way you handled your response here to be very admirable. Mature, even. (hah! Tag, you're the mature 'it'.)

[Image]

Damnit!

My spelling is fine, it's my typing when I'm offended that needs some work!

:hides behind a tree to leap out and tag an unsuspecting bystander as mature:

[Image]

Second, you had better not worry about getting hurt feelings ever. Better to grow a thicker skin and accept constructive criticism.

Please reread my post. That wasn't what I said.

[Drorain]

Image, I liked developing my image, because...well...it took me so damn long, one year of mulling, not obsessing, but just developing here and there. I dont know what to think about outsourcing your own logo, I guess it'd be the same thing if you were an established firm, you could bounce ideas off of peers. Thats my understanding of what your asking, and that I think is fine

[mitch@home]

Image, please do not stoop to personal abuse.

I just feel that you have made some pretty wild claims, and to be honest the work I have seen so far (the business card and door hanger) is well below par for anyone working on such big accounts - and that is not a dig either, it is just what is expected when you work at such a high level. I am not trying to put the work or you down at all.

As you saw from my crit on your card, (which I took some time to construct so I didn't dishearten you but gave you a little scope to improve) I did actually try to give you some perspective, but what you have just would not cut the crust in world of blue chip design.

I also stated that I would love to see your sketches and prelim artwork that follow through to the final published design and maybe even your portfolio but all I have seen is the b/card and door hanger.

So please you have talked the talk (well sort of) now are you gonna walk the walk as I would love to see you prove me wrong by displaying your portfolio.

Please do not get offended by my posting, but this is a public board, and if you post such claims surely you expect to be questioned?

[defjoe]

ok guys...so far so good but let's keep this civil or i'll lock this thread before it gets out of hand.

so far... your ok... just watch what you say.

[morea]

it's ok to disagree, but we don't go for flaming round these parts!
http://www.spacespider.net/emo/whacky064.gif

[Jeff Fisher LogoMotives]

there are two barbers in town and you desperately need a trim. you look in the window of the first shop and the barber has a shaggy, mis-shapen, abomination of a haircut (looks like a template *bahdoomboom*). when you look in the other shop, the barber has a head of hair that has been beautifully, tidily, and stylishly coiffured.

which barber do you go to?

I was just thinking back to unc's earlier post and realized:

I'd probably go to the barber with the better logo.

- J.

[uncle carbunkle]

ew, jeff fisher logo motives - you made me rofl all over myself.
;)

[Image]

Ahahahaha!

[morea]

lmao

[Broacher]

Y'know what's funny about that Jeff? I'm the exact opposite-- I don't trust anybody with scissors around my head if their shop (or logo) looks fancier than my dentists. Man, you should see my mechanic's stationary and signage! Dismal, dismal, dismal! But what a great mechanic!

Besides, with barbers, it's all in the magazines.

Actually, when I think about it-- the last time I went to a barber must have been a year ago. 95% of the time it's my wife who does the trimming. Maybe she could do my logo too? (FTR, she's trained and was once a designer/illustrator before she became a librarian).

[Ghastly]

apologies folks...perhaps fire will descend upon me but having had to respectfully defend my position in the soapbox yesterday,I have consigned to memory the gist of certain individuals points of view...the context of this thread given the nature of things that have been said lately by it's originator just smacks of pure hypocracy. The fact that I am still out of work and have all but given up on a trade that I am good at is because of the huge number of people who are way more skilled in deception than I am.

Mitch has said nothing that I would not have said first, feel free to direct your flames at me because I'm sure that I will be capable of bringing something to counter whatever you have to say.

[Vikia]

Please reread my post. That wasn't what I said.
hmmm didn't mean to strike a nerve. You asked for my opinion and that's what I gave...my opinion, take it at face value or don't. If you believe that
Second, you had better not worry about getting hurt feelings ever. Better to grow a thicker skin and accept constructive criticism. You will be the one that MUST be honest with yourself and if you can't be, find someone who will be. Professionally, everyone you come in contact will be judging your work in some way: clients, their employees, their customers, printers, competitors, etc. etc. does not apply to your situation, you are free to disregard it. ;)

[Image]

the context of this thread given the nature of things that have been said lately by it's originator just smacks of pure hypocracy.

How?

feel free to direct your flames at me because I'm sure that I will be capable of bringing something to counter whatever you have to say.

Actually, please don't.

I made this thread because I thought about something and wanted to begin a discussion, I thought that was what message boards are for. Everyone (no, actually, maybe 3 people) hacked into me for it. That wasn't what this thread was for, and I'd much rather see the discussion continue than to see it locked because of bickering.


It seems if you don't have anything to add to the discussion (this is directed to anyone), there is no reason to post. If you are appalled by the subject, you can say that in a constructive way, and move on. If you want to delve further, then do so. Pick the threads you want to participate in and ignore the ones you dont. Easy. I'd much rather be friendly and somewhat intellectual with everyone rather than the constant battle that seems to progress (as is with most message boards).

Anyone else who hasn't chimed in on the idea of having other designers take a stab at your logo so you can get ideas you might have missed? Yea or Nay?

[Image]

hmmm didn't mean to strike a nerve.

No, no, you didn't. I thought you just misunderstood me, (the hurting my own feelings part was kind of a sarcastic exaggeration...no, a metaphor, actually).

Out of context of it's relation (or lack thereof) to my original post, to your credit, the advice you gave should certianly be one of the first things a graphic designer learns (and something, incedentally, I'm still trying to learn now and again.

Thanks, and sorry, I guess I was still going from my rant the other night.

[Ghastly]

the context of this thread given the nature of things that have been said lately by it's originator just smacks of pure hypocracy.

How?



may I direct you to post #13 in this thread...it is an excerpt from the thread you started yesterday in the soapbox backed up with my own comment. If you do not wish to bother yourself with the hassle of doing that, please allow me to state the gist of that particular quotation:

I am crafting an IMAGE you will RUN YOU BUSINESS WITH for A VERY LONG TIME. I DON'T WANT TO BE PAID $39.00 AN HOUR. This is a statement that would allege you are well versed in the art of creating corporate identities...It is a statement that you are bloody good at what you do.

The hypocracy lies in the fact that for someone who claims he is able to command such a high fee for his artistic prowess, he does not feel able to create a logo that befits his status.
"I am almost certain I will have someone else do it."

[uncle carbunkle]

...man, i hate the way that popcorn gets between your teeth...

*oops*

sorry, carry on being pedantic and childish.

[Mynock]

...man, i hate the way that popcorn gets between your teeth...

*oops*

sorry, carry on being pedantic and childish.

I don't know what "pedantic" is does that make me childish?:confused: :eek: :rolleyes:

[Ghastly]

pedantic means I'm splitting hairs...childish means that I should grow up


My run of bad luck so far in this industry makes me fume when I see a thread such as this. That I take care to craft my posts is so that my position can not be refuted by shouting loudly

[Image]

Ghastly, I see where you are coming from.


I did state that I make identities, and I did state I feel I am pretty good at what I do...


On the other hand, the entire point of this thread was that:

1) It is a different experience not watching the logo being built, but rather just seeing it done.
2) There might be techniques or visions another designer has that I do not see.
3) Ill combine three into all the other reasons this entire thread has conjured might be a good reason to have a third party help out.


So while saying I'm a hypocrite might almost be correct, it is negated by the fact that this entire thread has nothing to do with the idea that I want my logo designed by someone else because I think they can do it BETTER. I presented it on the grounds that another designer might do it DIFFERENTLY.

Besides, even if it was about having someone else do it because they're better, am I not allowed to think I am good at what I do AND think someone else is still better, or do I ultimately have to think I am the very best designer in the world period in order to avoid hypocrisy in that situation?


Again, I understand where you're coming from, but it does miss the entire reason I posted to begin with.



Thanks for the perspective, though.


I actually think this thread has done a pretty good job of staying away from childishness.


Oh, and Ghastly, if you still disagree with me, don't see my point of view, or think I'm wrong, let's just let each have his own. Might you have something the weigh in more as far as the discussion is concerned? I'd much rather convers with you than argue with you.p

[Image]

That I take care to craft my posts is so that my position can not be refuted by shouting loudly

You know, I noticed that. At first I started screaming at the top of my lungs; however, when I hit the "post reply" button, it kept telling me I couldnt make a blank post, and soon after, my neighbors called to see if everything was all right.

You....my friend...you are crafty. :p

[Neballer]

:confused: hmmm..........unc can I have some popcorn, I'll trade you for some of my big gulp.

[morea]

you can share my popcorn Neballer...http://www.spacespider.net/emo/common057.gif

but we're all gonna hug and be friends here! :p

[Neballer]

sounds good, maybe a dip in the naked hippie hot tub. :D

[Image]

Come to think of it, I actually do hate how it gets stuck in your teeth.

[Image]

Popcorn...not hot-tub water.

However, naked hippie hot tubs do have certain...items....that get stuck in your teeth if you open your mouth...

[morea]

eew. just eew.

[Neballer]

^^LMFAO and also eww.

[morea]

I love the bumper sticker that says "visualize whirled peas" :p

[Neballer]

Ha HA!
There's a pool-hall in Minni that has shirts that say, "Shoot Pool, not people."

[mitch@home]

So I guess we don't get to see your portfolio then? :(

[Image]

Ahahahahaha @ neballer + morea.

Mitch - for reasons stated in my first post, I have never put one online. The people here have got me a little less worried about thievery, and I am building my site as we speak (actually, I'm typing a response at this point); actually it's my first go at web design (so it will SUCK!). Anyway, when it's up, Ill post it, be patient.

[morea]

^ I hear that! I started in print, and web design is a completely different animal.

My portfolio is actually still not online either! :o

[Image]

So glad I'm not the only one. For a minute I felt like I was the only one or something.


:Professional designer with monacle scoffs: (british accent) You mean, your portfolio isn't online? BWAHA BWAHAHAHAHAHA.


But seriously, HTML, XML, XHTML, CSS... I'm like :confused: :confused: :confused:


:D

[morea]

everything I know about HTML and CSS I learned from www.w3schools.com

hooray for free resources! :D

[Image]

Yep. I did the w3school 2 and 3 times. I get 100's on their little quizzes. heh. They could explain some things better, though.

[morea]

lol, you're not kidding!

[mitch@home]

:Professional designer with monacle scoffs: (british accent) You mean, your portfolio isn't online? BWAHA BWAHAHAHAHAHA.
:D

How about a pdf of some of the sketches???

[Image]

Sure. I'll scan in some identity sketches this evening if I can find the time send me a PM to remind me.

As it stands I have a ton of business card orders standing on my desk that are do tomorrow at 8am. On top of that I'm trying to learn friggin web design. Ugh, and here I sit on GDF when I should be working....

I'm sure somebody else here does that, too.

[morea]

<cough>not me!</cough> :D

[Image]

Lol! Riiiiiiiiiiight.

[D-Zine]

No no..me either ;)

[morea]

:o

[Mitch Wood]

Wow, 670 views!

Beats watching Big brother I suppose... ;)

[morea]

ha!