I need to vent, and the soap box is cheaper than therapy

[morea]

Anybody remember that client neuro and I were working with last fall who stiffed us to the tune of a few hundered dollars?

We made that oh-so-common mistake of not having a written contract because he was a friend. And he decided that he wasn't going to pay us for our work. We have not heard from him since last fall.

Well, his girlfriend is bothering neuro at work today, asking for the electronic file so she can have his business cards printed!

Emails follow: (God I hate it that she types in all caps.)


her: HI (NEURO). CAN YOU PLEASE SEND THE ORIGINAL FILE THAT WAS DONE FOR DAVE'S BUSINESS CARD? AND ALSO THE ONE THAT WAS DONE WITH HIS NEW PHONE NUMBER ON IT? AS SOON AS YOU CAN WOULD BE GREAT. HE WILL BE BACK HOME SOON AND I WOULD LIKE TO GET HIS CARDS READY. WE ALSO WANT TO SQUARE THINGS UP WITH YOU WHEN HE GETS BACK, SO IF YOU CAN LET ME KNOW WHAT HE OWES YOU.


neuro: Dear (Name),

Due to the fact that we have received no acknowledgement from (Client) about the outstanding invoices in some time I am a bit reluctant to grant this request. We will send (Client) another invoice with his outstanding amount.

However in order to keep things on a professional level, I will burn all of his business card files to a disk and give them to you. We have a standard charge of $x, that will be required of him before we turn over the files. This is to cover our time that it takes to burn them and the cost of the CD. We can have the CD to you the day after we receive payment for it. As we stated in one of our past letters to him, due to the nature of the situations of doing business, we now require all of our clients to be CIA.

Thank you for your understanding.
Neuro

PS - I also would like to request that any emails dealing with the business be sent to our business email address. This is to protect myself from any claims of conflicts of interest. Thank you!


her: WELL I NEED YOU TO E-MAIL THE MOST RECENT CARD OF HIS TO CHERIE IF YOU COULD. I DON'T WANT ANY CHANGES MADE TO IT, I JUST NEED IT E-MAILED. HE HAS ALREADY PAID YOU TO DO HIS CARD WHEN IT WAS FIRST DONE. UNFORTUNATELY DAVE HAS NOT BEEN AROUND SINCE JANUARY AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVEN'T HEARD FROM HIM. I AM NOT ASKING ALOT NEURO. I AM JUST ASKING FOR THE FILE OF HIS CARD THAT HAS BEEN PAID FOR.

[morea]

am I wrong, or don't we own the files, especially until he pays us what he owes?!?

[Kool]

Where has he been since January, in a coma? LOL This takes some serious gall to even ask for this. Love how he gets his GF to do the actual asking. Sounds like the friendship is pretty much dead so I wouldn't give em squat till they are paid in full. http://home.comcast.net/~rnick9/koolsmiley.gif

[morea]

apparently - get this - he has been in prison since January.

[defjoe]

she said they paid you? what did they pay you? or is she lying. if they owe you money I wouldn't give them squat.

[defjoe]

ha... we both used squat Kool

[morea]

God, I am so mad I am shaking.

We did several jobs for them, and they paid SOME of the balance they owed. They still have an outstanding balance of about $300 from last fall.

[defjoe]

it happens. damn i did a job for a printshop (freelance) and it took them like 3 months to pay me.

[Kool]

Send em a 36 dpi jpeg and tell em they get the rest of the dpi when they pay up. Squat Squat Squat Squat Squat Squat :D

[morea]

it has been 9 months, and they have not acknowledged any of the letters or invoices we sent them.

[defjoe]

give the SQQQQUUUUUAAATTTTTT

(but i like Kool's idea)

[D-Zine]

Pffft..I wouldn't give them...sqaut! :p

Seriously! He was in prison, so where is he possibly going to get the money to pay you the balance after you email him the business card? He's not. He'll have what he wants, and since you don't have a contract you won't be able to get the money they owe once they get the file!

Tell em - Sit on it Pots!! Stand your ground - they get the file, when you get your money. If they have the money to have the cards printed, then they have the money to pay you before you send the file. Period. Its business. :) Stay professional like you have but then comes to us and tell em to kiss yer a$$ :D LOL

[defjoe]

yeah what ^she^said

[G-Man79]

The nerve some people have. Unpancaking believeable. I say you add a watermark to the business card that says "Felonius Cheapskate" or "Convicted Welcher". Something to indicate the fact that he's been in prison and he doesn't pay people what he owes them. That should help his business venture tremendously. (<---Did I spell that correctly?)

In all serious, write this halfwit back and tell her that in order to receive the file via email, you must receive the balance of the invoice. If she still gets snotty, you can always use these phrases to move the payment along: "small claims court" and/or "lawyer". That usually works.

Good luck!

P.S. - Make sure your email reply is all in caps and Comic Sans. :)

[morea]

you know, I had accepted getting screwed on the balance, and come to terms with it. Now I use contracts with everyone for everything. I learned the hard way.

I guess that I am mainly taking issue with the fact that these people have the nerve to think that we are going to allow them to screw us *again*!

[D-Zine]

Its rediculous. Why would they think you would you give them the file until they pay you the balance in full? I mean who are they? LOL! I wouldn't even email them again. I wouldn't. You have stated what you require in order for them to get the file. Until you receive that - its yours. They can't do anything about that. I would ignore any and all emails from until payment is received, just as they have ignored your invoices that you sent previously. Once payment is in your hands, then you send the file, and never do business with them again! Right!?!!

[morea]

argh - neuro responded to her before I got back to him...

here is his message:

(GF),

I understand you are not asking a lot of us. The reason I wanted to provide a CD was so that you or (Client) would not have to come to us each time he wanted new cards. He would then have the files himself. It was not my intention to cause an issue or any tension.

I understand he paid for the card to be "set up" but when we do ANY type of business work we charge. One of the biggest issues that we run into as graphic designers is that people tend to forget that our time is what makes us money. We take our business very serious and conduct ourselves that way. We appreciate (Client)'s business but at the same time we are still owed money. There has to be an understanding that we would be a bit upset about not being paid. We feel that the rates that we gave Dave were more than fair.

It is unfortunate that (Client) has not been around. We hope that everything works out for the best and he is able to move forward with his business.

Like I said, we are not looking to cause an issue. We want to conduct ourselves professionally and make sure that we received the proper compensation for our time.

The print shop will receive the file this afternoon.
Neuro

[morea]

^ so what do I do, send them the damned file at 150 dpi? Bastards. God, this irritates me. I don't think we should give them a damned thing, but this poses a bit of a problem.

Since he asked her to deal with him at our BUSINESS email address instead of harassing him at work, I told him that if she keeps at it he needs to speak to her supervisor.

[Kool]

:(

[morea]

Once payment is in your hands, then you send the file, and never do business with them again! Right!?!!

hell yes! I never want to see these people again. :mad:

[Patrick Shannon]

What a bunch of retarded idiots....I wouldn't even send a 150dpi card. Heck, even if it's 72dpi, they might even just go ahead and use them, remember customers love crap.

When it comes to money, don't even trust friends. Mom learned the hard way when she loaned $700 to a friend (I was furious when I found out, because that "friend" has lots of skeletons) and that friend didn't pay back a cent. That friend even had the nerve to come to the door and ask for $20 to help get her son out of jail, and when Mom refused (mentioning the $700), she started going into a nutty tirade. Mom is too good natured for her own good, but karma came back to her....we found out a month later that a dead relative still had unclaimed money and we received $1500. It might have been that or the casino, she did hit it big at one time...I could be mixing the results of that up.

And one of my best friends....well, his parents actually....commissioned me to film and edit his sister's wedding video and I never saw a cent from that. I kept pestering my friend to remind his parents, but he kept forgetting...I figured it wasn't worth ruining a friendship and just let it go. However, the parents still wanted edits/copies, so I don't have to do crap until they pay up.

People are so friggin ignorant, whether it's a friend that owes money or a neighbor that borrows something and never brings it back despite asking multiple times. I have always paid what I owed, and I can feel good about saying that. But when it comes to money, trust no one! Not even me!

[Patrick Shannon]

Oh...and squat.

[Drorain]

That sucks completely morea, I wish i knew how to advise.

[Ryan8720]

send a 50 dpi file.

[D-Zine]

what Ryan said ^^ and then ... squat!!!

[morea]

I guess this is one of the reasons that I like cats better than people. Pfft. :dry: Here are a few more:

Cats don't care about your age, gender, religion, sexual orientation, or political affiliation.

Cats don't judge you based on your income.

Cats do not care whether you shave your legs.

Cats won't complain if you don't make the bed or do the dusting.

You don't have to wonder if the cat is lying to you.

Cats don't make a practice of killing their own species.

Cats seldom interfere with other people's rights.

Cats don't care if you're a few pounds overweight.

Your cat usually won't leave you for another human.

[steve-o]

meow

[morea]

aw, there are a few exceptions to that rule, steve-o! ;)

[Image]

you know, I had accepted getting screwed on the balance ["...to the tune of a few hundred dollars."], and come to terms with it. Now I use contracts with everyone for everything. I learned the hard way.



If you think about it, that was a pretty cheap lesson. Coulda been a few Thousand or a few hundred thousand. I'm happy for you that it wasn't!

Friends'll screw ya, only because they can.

[morea]

yup - it sure could have been worse! Trust me that I do appreciate the fact that they didn't take me for a lot more!

It wasn't so much the money aspect of things that got to me, it was the "adding insult to injury" part of it. To show up 9 months later with an unpaid balance and start asking favors is a little rude!

[idaho]

Don't send them anything except a note that ALL electronic files are the property of Neuro until the entire invoice is PAID IN FULL. No exceptions.

If she has a problems with it tell her tough crap. They should have paid you months ago.

[Jeff92]

In case anyone is wondering, I am already in a pretty bad mood. Hearing about Morea;s plight just pisses me off a little bit more.... which brings me to this....

A new business idea for Graphic Designers! Tired of your clients not paying you on time? Or not at all? Give me a call. I am willing to travel anywhere and insure by any means necassary that you get paid. With interest! Sounds like an inforcer? Well.... Ummm.... it isn't? Yes......

Anyways. Don't give them anything until full payment is recieved and the cheque has not bounced. You may have done work for them in the past and if they want that work, tell them you have your fee for that. But any new work you need a full payment plus the fee to copy to files to CD.

What a pain in the a$$

[morea]

Tired of your clients not paying you on time? Or not at all? Give me a call. I am willing to travel anywhere and insure by any means necassary that you get paid. With interest!

I may just take you up on that Jeff! :p lol

The commiserating is actually helping. Thanks for the feedback everybody!

[Patrick Shannon]

A new business idea for Graphic Designers! Tired of your clients not paying you on time? Or not at all? Give me a call. I am willing to travel anywhere and insure by any means necassary that you get paid. With interest!

Graphic design pimp, hard at work.

"Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?"

[steve-o]

Many businesses have these -- called collections agents or collections representatives, etc.

There are third-party collections agencies you can contract to as well.

Good luck, Jeff92 in your new business venture.

[Vikia]

hmmmm, I can send you to one of my clients, he is a professional collector and owns a fairly large firm that does this type of thing really very well (and he is a really great guy!). If you need him, I will be glad to send you his name and contact information.

[MD]

Sorry to hear about your problems Morea - I wouldn't have given them squat. I had a client that was as far back as 9 months - She continually paid me but kept falling behind. At the begining of the year I cut her off because she owed more than $1800.00. I forwarded files to the printers in exchange for checks, slowly she caught back up. Tonight I am supposed to collect the last $860.00 tonight in exchange for some files she needs printed.

[cbscreative]

This may not help much after the fact, but it will help CYA in the future. I use a Work Order and Invoice on every job. The WO not only clarifies what is included in the price of the job, it takes advantage of copyright law and provides leverage. I found a nice way to say it that does not make anyone feel offended, it actually reinforces my professionalism. By the way, in contract law, a signature is not required when both parties understand the terms. In my case I usually collect a down payment which specifically states that it serves as an acceptance of terms.

Below is what I put at the bottom of my WO's and anyone is free to use this if they like it.

"Estimated price does not include additional labor associated with extensive modifications to writing or design concepts, but initial concepts based on discussions are included as part of the normal creative process. In the event that price will vary beyond 10% of estimate, client will be advised of such before those additional costs are incurred. These services usually involve copyrights and intellectual property rights for all submissions. All rights are automatically assigned to the client by Creative Business Services once final invoices are paid in full."

The last part is key. If they don't pay, they have no legal right to use the design. In fact, they could be sued. I am an easy going guy and have never sued anyone, but I also do not want my creative work lining the pockets of someone who does not pay for it.

This may not eliminate the problem, but it sure does provide leverage. It takes it from the level of an unpaid bill to copyright infringement which is much more serious.

Steve
www.cbscreative.com (http://www.cbscreative.com/)

[morea]

thanks for sharing that. Good advice.

We had a late meeting with another client last night - actually, we left for the meeting as soon as I got home from my day job, and didn't get home until after 10. Since we have to be up at 5, we both went to bed.

Well, as soon as Neuro got to work this morning, he was greeted by a nasty email from this girl, at his work address again. He is really in a no-win situation here, because this girl works in the same office building as he does, and she is harassing him constantly.

He is going to take the matter to his supervisor for advice, since he obviously shouldn't be getting harassed about freelance work while he is at his other job.

That's exactly why he asked this person to email our business address - he doesn't want to be accused by his regular employer as working for his own business on their dime.

[keith1]

Jeez morea that sucks, if i were neuro i would just give her the files for the business card (a new design with comic sans) and never do business with her again. You don't want this to escalate any further. She has that jail bird boyfriend and all, who knows what he did time for ;)

[paulrandfan]

What did the new email say.

I've learned this lesson the hard way. You don't go to the store and leave with unpaid for product. It works the same way with me.

Just because your name is on it, doesn't mean it's yours and you are entitled to it. They obviously have the funds to get the cards printed, so they can pay for them as well. We as an industry need to stop accepting this behavior from people. When I deal with people I always ask "how is this going to affect my industry"

[Patrick Shannon]

Yeah.....this situation is really kind of like lay-a-way if you think about it.

[morea]

unbelievable. She emailed him AGAIN demanding the file.

Now really, he has been at work since 7am with no car. How in the world can he send a file that is on his machine at HOME without leaving the building?

He is taking the new email to his supervisor. I hope that she gets in trouble.

You know, the reason he doesn't want to get into this is because he works in the same office with her, and her BF (the client) is more than a little bit of a thug. That's why he went to jail.

He is the sort who would pour sugar in our gas tank or worse. AND Neuro's coworker (the gf) knows where we live, because she has been over to the house before. ARGH.

[keith1]

Exactly morea, what I said. Give her the stupid biz card file and cut the ties, you don't need that kind of headache. "Thug Life, What! Represent! East Side!"

[Neuro]

Ok, guys I haven't been on during this whole lovely ordeal and thanks to Morea you guys are getting the play by play about this lovely ass-hat of a client of ours. :mad:

So I went to my super about the emails and he was very upset about it. We talked and I explained to him that my concern is that there would be retaliation for whatever happens to her at work and more likely outside of work. My super talked to me for awhile and calmed me down a bit. He told me that he understood my concerns and would do whatever I felt should be done. He said that he could "protect" me here but could not do anything to "protect" me outside of work. I felt that was completely fair. Even though he did at one point say he "could" go kick the shit out of the guy but that would just lead to all kinds of other issues. LOL! He can be a pain in the ass sometimes but he can be a good guy too. So we decided to let it go for now.

The major reason is, like Morea said, this guy is in jail and has already "complained" he doesn't think it is fair for us to hassel. I don't want to find out he is damaging the new car or the house and I sure as hell don't want to find out he comes after me somewhere. I don't put it past this guy to key our car or to do something else as stupid. So to make the story short I have emailed the art file in complete outlines. It isn't as devious as many of my fellow designer's ideas but I did purposely wait until after 5, when everyone is gone for the day to send it. That way she can think it isn't there all weekend and find out Monday she was wrong. :cool:

As many of you have said and my boss also said, this was a cheap lesson. It sucks and we are a bit bitter about it but we learned. That is what is more important than playing the games, to me. If it wasn't a coworker and it wasn't a possibly pychotic client, we would have stuck to our guns. I did jump on my gun and I won't make that mistake again.

I want to personally thank EVERYONE who helped Morea and I through this. Especially Morea. This place is an awesome support group and we learn so much from you guys everyday! I hope that some newbies can learn from this roller coaster adventure of ours and hopefully not make the same mistake.

Let me just close by saying...

CONTRACTS!! CONTRACTS!! CONTRACTS!!

:rolleyes:

[keith1]

Well said Neuro!!! Want to get into graphic design anyone? Learn Values, Values, Values and Contracts, Contracts, Contracts!!

[cbscreative]

Amen!

[Neuro]

Ok, so I took care of it Friday and half expected another hateful message when I got in this morning. Thankfully there wasn't one but I thought that I would at least have an acknowledgement from someone that they received the file after all this shit. WTF?! I guess I was expecting WAY TOO MUCH.

Oh well. She better not expect a damn thing out of us from here on out. As far as she and her loser bf are concerned, we are no longer in business. Definitely not in any business that deals with anything to do with them.

ARGH! Some ppl really suck. I just like to think that somewhere down the line they will both be given the same slap in the face that we were given. It's the least they deserve!

[CatintheHat1]

Maybe you can just set his name on a Get Out of Jail Free card from monopoly?

A Nony Mouse

[JaCkinbOx]

Maybe you can just set his name on a Get Out of Jail Free card from monopoly?

A Nony Mouse

Or maybe make one of those comical Magic: The Gathering spoof cards.

[Axile Media]

I am sorry to say that you are not the only one with crappy clients. I personally would have sent her a flattened file with balance due $300 in fine print all over it, but I'm rude like that. When people owe me money for too long, are pushy and rude, and I don't want their business any more, they don't deserve any kindness or effort. Also to your benifit is the fact that you don't have a contract because as far as the paper work goes they haven't contracted you to do anything thus you owe them nothing. I hope you are blessed with many happy rich clients in the future.

[morea]

thank you for the kind words, Axile Media.

[CatintheHat1]

WTF?! I guess I was expecting WAY TOO MUCH.



I had the same thing happen. I had most of my money (project was months old, long gone to press) and didn't get paid for some changes (about $100), but some employee of a rather well-known publishing house (not THAT well-known, but large enough) fired me saying she'd use her "New York Design firm" --- uh-huh!! Anyway, the *&$!@ did that BEFORE she had her files..hahahah. I sent them anyway (at midnight), not even a thank you.

I did notice the files on their website though, with the changes I made last (I refused to make more)...so apparently their "New York design firm" wasn't available for midnight changes, either. The file looks like crap (they ended up having me put small red text on a dark blue blackground - if you realllly squint you can ALMOST read it)...hahahah...glad I'm not getting credit for that one!

Sometimes the cosmos fight back for us.

Cat