Why are tables bad?

[DeleteYourself]

I'm trying to emerse myself in CSS (and beyond) to enhance my web designing skills, so I've been reading a lot on csszengarden and w3schools. Everyone seems to agree that it's better to design in straight CSS, as opposed to using tables. But what I can't figure out, is why?

[keith1]

From what I read when you start laying out webpages in tables and inbedding tables in tables etc.. you need a lot of tables generally to put stuff where you want and to have it stay there and supposedly this bogs down the load times with all that code. I hear with css there is no fooling around with tables and you can place content anywhere on the page kind of like laying out a doc in indesign or quark. I am far from a web designer master though so maybe there are other reasons I am still trying to master dreamweaver using regular html pages.

[Patrick Shannon]

As Keith said, better and more powerful positioning.

Tables still have their occasional use to me. For example, I was designing a website where I needed a picture gallery arranged out in columns, but because the side DIVs has floats and clears, this was a dilemma. (Some IE problems, Mozilla, too long to talk about). So I used a combination of a table and an absolutely positioned DIV and it accomplished this.

[DeleteYourself]

Ok, that makes sense to me. But I'm having major problems getting the hang of this. I feel like a major noob. I guess I don't get the jargon yet, when I'm reading articles and how-to's.

Guess I just have to keep reading and keep learning. Anyone have any tips for someone learning CSS from scratch?

[JPnyc]

Tables are still necessary for certain layout types. For instance, these forums are almost all tables. There's still no quicker easier way of insuring placement and the same appearance in all browsers, while also showing full width at all resolutions

[Image]

The CSSvauly has a great from the ground up tutorial that starts you in basic HTML and graduates you up. It's really great.

http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/basics/index.html

[tZ]

wow... awsome css tutorial image.

I am learning alot

very well writen - thanks for sharing

[DeleteYourself]

Nice link! I've been reading up non-stop, and even bought a book this weekend (written by Eric Meyer).

[tZ]

delete what books are you finding most helpfull and comprehensive?

author, title, etc

[DeleteYourself]

I bought this Eric Meyer on CSS: Mastering the Language of Web Design (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/073571245X/qid=1118689020/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-4484968-8062234) (But I haven't started readin it yet)

And I've been learning a lot from sites like w3schools.com, csszengarden.com, and cssvault.com

[Ulysses]

Well ... first thing that comes to mind, is the number of times I'd bang my damned shin on table legs at school. Not only did it hurt, but I'd get a clout around the ear from my mom for having bruised shins.

Now if you take that same principal, and add a math forumla so cunning that even Einstein would be proud of it, then ... you have my answer.

Tables also don't allow you to whip up a quick print stylesheet, to completely reformat the layout of a document. If you drive your content via a database though, then it doesn't take that much more effort to generate an additional print friendly version of your page.

[cbscreative]

One other problem with tables that CSS easily fixes is better SEO. With CSS you can have your important content at the top of the code regardless of where it appears on the page. Search engines like seeing your content at the top.

With tables, your content could be at the top visually, but in the code it could be very far down. This is why the descriptions listed with search results sometimes show things like navigation instead of the actual page content.

Kieth is very right about tables bogging down the code too. They can increase page load time very easily, and become difficult to manage. With CSS, the maintenance is much easier. If for some reason you wanted to move content around on the page, this is very easy with CSS, but could be a nightmare with tables. As JPnyc stated though, tables still have their place and I use them in some cases.

Once you get comfortable with CSS, you will not want to use tables very often.

I have an article I will eventually add to my site that deals with using CSS to achieve better SEO. When it's available, there will be a link to webmaster resources from the web design section if anyone would be interested.

Steve
www.cbscreative.com (http://www.cbscreative.com)

[cbscreative]

Excellent point about printing!! I always create a print style.

Steve
www.cbscreative.com (http://www.cbscreative.com)

[CHRISGEE]

Delete,

I'm also a CSS noob. There are a couple of other books I HIGHLY recommend for fellow noobs.

Web Standards Solutions: The Markup and Style Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1590593812/ref%3Dnosim/simplebits-20/104-7360369-6870306) by Dan Cederholm is a fantastic book I just recently finished reading.

Designing with Web Standards (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0735712018/qid=1118770352/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/104-7360369-6870306?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Jeffrey Zeldman is also a fantastic and helpful book.

Good luck!

[DeleteYourself]

Thanks!

[Drorain]

wow looks like i have a bit to learn, I have no clue how to use css for layout...only for type specs

[CHRISGEE]

Drorain,

It seems daunting at first but before you know it, you'll be there. And like others have stated, tables aren't bad per se. They do have their uses. However even a very simple table with CSS for styling and positioning within the cells will yield a lighter page with greater flexibility and more consistency across browsers.

We've all experienced the HORROR when a client asks, as we are in final testing of a table-based website, "but it gets cut off when I print"! Creating an easy print style sheet is even easy for a CSS noob like me. :-)

[TheBluePanda]

I've been using tables for years and don't plan on switching to CSS positioning anytime soon. I have experiemented with it and made a few websites using CSS layout, but I'm not liking it so far. Seems to difficult to make advanced layouts, and half the time some sort of hack/fix is needed to accomplish something.

I'll give it more time to flourish before I switch over.

[JPnyc]

CSS is nice but as I said, it has quite a ways to go to really replace ALL the methods that came before. And in the real world when you have a half hr to do a layout and have it look the same in all browsers, you ain't using a completely CSS layout. You'll use it for some things, certainly, those things that it does best and quickest.

[Luis_C]

Hello, I have like 1 year using standards. I have been developing websites as a hobby, I have 4 years doing it, (since I was 10 years old) and recently I have helped in some proyects with the new methods of design.

How I learnt is with w3schools.com, 2 books: Eric Meyer and Sitepoint The CSS Anthology and specially looking to other people's code. (Not stealing it, learning from it and trying to do the same).

About the tables I continue using it to show data, or for example in the forums for every section. It has sense to continue doing it like that. Tables aren't dead now, but they are used for other things. As another people have said here is that they won't adopt the standards. I understand them, and their way to do websites is a good method, too but yes when you have 10 years developing websites it doesn't have sense. 4 years before I didn't have thought in write my code. I just edited in FrontPage.

BTW, why I can't never be able to post with another browser that isn't IE here? I get timeout, weird.

[cjoe]

BTW, why I can't never be able to post with another browser that isn't IE here? I get timeout, weird.

Use firefox!