Question about salary history

[wienerdog]

Having been at a long-term on-site temp assignment, I have been making a decent paycheck. My health insurance costs just went up, which I pay for out of my pocket after taxes (which is a nice benefit, if you can get it). Anyway, after bitching to the agency about my health insurance costs going up, they increased my hourly rate an additional $1/hr.

My wife feels at this point, I shouldn't be asking for anything less than what I'm making now when applying to jobs that ask for salary requirements/history. Is that fair? Also, what are employers looking to see in a cover letter when they ask for salary requirements and salary history. Is there a difference?

I usually include a line saying "I am currently seeking a full-time opportunity with a salary in the range of $X0,000 to $X5,000.

[morea]

never discuss salary until you have been offered a job.

[Patrick Shannon]

I absolutely agree with Morea, this is a pathetic screening device that simply suggests to me they're looking to get someone cheaper as opposed to someone talented. I have always simply ignored the request for salary history. Judge me on what I can do, not on what I make.

[morea]

I'm not just saying that, either. I have read up on it quite a bit, and was also given the same advice by a career counselor.

If they ask for salary, I tell them that it is negotiable... depending on the job responsibilities and overall benefit package that they offer. And then I nicely tell them that I would like to hear more about the job, and that I am certain if they offer me the position, we could work out a salary that would be fair to both of us.

[CHRISGEE]

I've never ever responded to requests for salary history or salary requirements either. I never discussed salary until we got further into discussions and both sides were interested unless I just wanted to blow an employer off and gave them an insanely high figure! LOL!

I agree that blind requests for salary history are a pathetic attempt to screen and get cheap prospects. I don't even believe it's a good idea to respond to job postings that don't list a salary range. Why waste your time? At my old agency we always included a salary range. How can you NOT???

It's irrelevant what my salary history is. This is the range it's going to take for me to consider the position. Period.

The last time I interviewed for jobs prior to landing where I did, I interviewed with a bunch of places and one place that eventually made an offer asked me "What are you currently making?" I told him "I'm making X but it will require XYZ for me to make a move."

It seems to me that prospective employers need only to be concerned with what a candidate wants NOW as opposed to what they earned in the past.

[danedawg99]

So y'all are saying to ignore the salary requirements altogether? I've noticed that most of the jobs around here ask for a salary history and list it as a requirement (along with resumé) but don;t even list cover letter as one.

[morea]

I have better information at home, but here are a few helpful articles:

Responding to Requests for Salary Requirements or Salary Histories: Strategies and Suggestions
http://www.quintcareers.com/salary_histories_requirements.html[/uel]



Determine What You're Worth
[url]http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/salary/Determine_What_Youre_Worth__20031112-1214.html?subtopic=Salary

Determine Your Value
http://content.salary.monster.com/articles/value/

How to Determine Your Salary Range
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/salary/How_to_Determine_Your_Salary_Range__2004421-1719.html?subtopic=Salary

The Art of Negotiating
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/salary/The_Art_of_Negotiating__2003915-1710.html?subtopic=Salary

Dealing With Questions about Salary History
http://content.salary.monster.com/articles/history/

This one is a "quiz" to test your money-talk skills:
http://tools.monster.com/quizzes/negoquiz/

[CHRISGEE]

So y'all are saying to ignore the salary requirements altogether? I've noticed that most of the jobs around here ask for a salary history and list it as a requirement (along with resumé) but don;t even list cover letter as one.

IMO, that should be a huge red flag. It's just like potential clients who ask about pricing before they even mention anything about the project specs. They're primarily seeking a cheap price and you should approach with caution.

[morea]

How to Handle a Request for Salary History
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/salary/How_to_Handle_a_Request_for_Salary_History__200462 3-1325.html?subtopic=Salary


http://www.tech%2Dengine.com/candidates/careerguide%5Fnegotiatingguide/page02.asp

[morea]

From http://interview.monster.com/articles/iq/

What Salary Are You Seeking?

It is to your advantage if the employer tells you the range first. Prepare by knowing the going rate in your area, and your bottom line or walk-away point. One possible answer would be: "I am sure when the time comes, we can agree on a reasonable amount. In what range do you typically pay someone with my background?"

[CHRISGEE]

Morrea,

Great advice and great links. I think it's also not a bad idea for folks to read a little about negotiating techniques as well.

Employers who are good negotiators will probably not tip their hand initially as to how much money they might pay. If you have a range beforehand, that will help. But some employers will force you to tip your hand first.

Your advice is great advice. Know your range, research the going rate for your position based on your experience and hold firm to your base salary.

One common negotiating tactic is silence. Employers and interviewers will use it to expose insecurity in candidates with respect to pricing. For instance, they'll ask "What salary range do you have in mind?" You answer "My current job pays me $75,000 but the going rate for someone with my experience is $85,000 and I'll require that to accept this position in your organization."

Silence. They're not shocked by your numbers. They KNOW the industry rates. Last week they may have interviewed 8 people asking for as much if not MORE than you're asking. You're rarely going to be asking the most money they've ever heard. But that's a tactic to reveal whether or not you're willing to stand by your number.

Often candidates get nervous and without a word being said by the interviewer, will offer "But that's TOTALLY negotiable and maybe I'd be willing to take $80,000 for the right position."

So now your TOP range is $80,000. They also now know that you're currently earning $75,000. So maybe they offer you $80,000 or maybe they offer you $78K. They may come back with $75K.

But $85K is officially off the table now and was taken off the table by YOU and your poor negotiating! Sometimes just sit and let there be silence. Don't back down and appear confident. If you come in higher than the range they had in mind but they think you're worth it, they'll fight to get you more money. But if YOU don't believe you're worth it, neither will they.

[morea]

if YOU don't believe you're worth it, neither will they.

exactly! ;)

[CHRISGEE]

Morrea you know this but I often say that a big misperception is that graphic design is a low-paying industry. It's NOT! There are plenty of graphic desginers who earn VERY high salaries all over the country, if not the world. These are not necessarily the most talented designers who are able to channel Paul Rand and Saul Bass. They are the designers who are confident in their abilities, stick to their prices/salaries and are willing to walk away if they don't get the offer they are looking for.

Too many designers actually think that since we love design, we have no right to expect to be handsomely rewarded for it. Design is not a low-paying field, it's a field filled with people with low self-esteem and low expectations.

If you want a salary of $80K, you should be asking for a range of $85K - $90K!! If your research indicates that your position should pay you $15K more than you currently earn, don't discount the surveys and headhunters and say "Oh, I'll NEVER get that!" Stick up for yourself!

Managers' jobs are to try and get the best talent for the best price. They are rarely going to simply throw money at candidates. Also, take your time. You don't have to accept an offer right away. Think about it, continue interviewing. Say no.

It goes against human nature but it's true that the first offer is ALWAYS the worst! Turn it down! If your employer is offering you $75K, they probably have authorization to go to $80K or $85K but they are smart enough not to start at the top of their range. Why? Because a smart negotiator will say "if he's starting at $75K, he can probably go higher." A poor negotiator will take the $75K and think they won a prize.... until a few months down the road when they realize they left money on the table!

[morea]

well said. Excellent advice, and I don't think that this topic has really been discussed before. I have added this thread to the "job search" links in the frequently discussed topics thread.

[wienerdog]

I see what you're saying about not divulging salary history in a cover letter. I usually put the salary I am currently seeking for a full-time position, but should I NOT do that? Should I not include it at all?

>>EDIT<< - Nevermind, I read one of the articles on Yahoo and found it helpful. I guess I'll give them a broad range or none at all for salary, because it is unfair to ask for a salary requirement up front.

[wienerdog]

Thanks very much for your advice, I've found it very helpful. So a job hunt is like a poker game, and you shouldn't reveal your salary requirements until they fold, and offer you the job. I've often been told to hold off on salary discussions by saying "I'm sure we can agree to fair compensation, and I'm negotiable based on benefits, career advancement, etc."

[morea]

Always try to let the employer be the one to mention salary first, if at all possible.

[danedawg99]

thanks to everyone who posted in this thread! I found this very helpful last nite when i sat down to do my coverletters!

[Patrick Shannon]

Oh, one more thing my godmother (a business woman) taught me.....when you do agree on the salary, ask them if you could have a performance review in six months time.

[CHRISGEE]

Oh, one more thing my godmother (a business woman) taught me.....when you do agree on the salary, ask them if you could have a performance review in six months time.

I only asked that if I didn't get the number I was looking for. If I got the number I wanted, I was OK with a review in a year! LOL!

[wienerdog]

Hmm...that's not a bad idea. But wow, the way corporate america works, it feels like we're fighting an uphill battle for power. Sticking to your salary demand, requesting a review in 6 months, has anyone been desperate for work? When you're unemployed, or desperate for your first half decent job in your life, you don't really have all this power. If you have 7-10 years experience, I can see being more assertive. But when you only have a few years' experience, do you really have this kind of power in a competitive field? There are much less jobs than designers. Doesn't that lower a less-experienced (2-5 years) designer's power to ask for something like $40-$45k a year, even in a major metropolitan area?

It also seems like most of the companies in the suburbs of a metro area pay less than companies in a city. Do you have to take things like that into consideration?

[CHRISGEE]

Wienerdog I think it boils down to a mindset. I think all of us have been desperate but at some point I just developed the mindset that I wasn't going to get short-changed or screwed over any more.

I've been on the hiring side and the interviewing side. Don't forget that it's NOT all one-sided. They are hiring because they are overworked, need your skill or have some other need. They are in a bind too, only they do a better job of not acting like it than many candidates.

Even with only a few years experience, you HAVE something to offer. You have to develop that mindset and you have to develop the negotiating skills now. If the range for a less-experienced designer is $40-$45K then why not $45K? Shoot for $45K and not $40K!

Shoot for some of the other things you can get out of a negotiation. Bonus? Tuition reimbursement? A seminar paid for? An extra week of vacation? A better title? More responsibility? Stock options?

A good rule of thumb is that you should never make a concession in a negotiation unless you get something in return. Of course, that means to be successful you have to know what you want beyond just money.

For example:

Interviewer: What kind of salary are you looking for?

You: I need $50K (but you REALLY want $45K).

Interviewer: $50K might be kind of high. I might be able to get you $43K.

You: I don't know if I feel comfortable coming down so much, but I'd be willing to take $47K if I could get assurances of a review after 6 months and perhaps have the title of Sr. Designer along with some supervisory responsibilities.

Interviewer: OK to the title and responsibilities but can we come down a bit more, perhaps to $44K?

You: If you can get me $45K, I'd be willing to accept the offer today, provided that HR can put everything we've agreed to in writing (and you should ALWAYS get this, BTW!)

Interviewer: Great! Congratulations and welcome aboard!

[CHRISGEE]

Let me just speak to this a little bit more.

I've had opportunity to hire and take part in the hiring process for much of my career. It's the best CANDIDATE that gets the job. Not always the most qualified and not even the best portfolio.

If you come off as competent, professional and CONFIDENT, you stand a good chance even if you're overreaching a bit in terms of the position you're after.

If a candidate makes enough of an impression, I've seen bosses go back to THEIR bosses and fight for more money! Go back and expand the position beyond its original scope! This kind of thing is done every day in the business world.

OTOH, nobody wants to hire someone who is down and out and desperate. Even if that's the reality, you can't let that shine through. By not negotiating for a fair market salary, you are sending that impression and it may end up costing you. There are so many designers out there who are jobless despite the fact that they make it known they will work for almost nothing. Maybe BECAUSE of that fact!

When a potential hirer walks away from an interview, you don't want them to walk away thinking "Boy, he/she is really having a tough time and needs a break" You want them thinking "A person of this calibre is NOT going to come along again and I sure don't want him/her getting snatched up by our biggest cross-town rival!"

[The_Black_Knight]

If you come off as competent, professional and CONFIDENT, you stand a good chance even if you're overreaching a bit in terms of the position you're after.

I can tell you from personal experience that this is true.

I recently interviewed for a long term contract position with the packaging department at a large pharmaceutical company. They were originally looking for someone that had experience in packaging (and several candidates that interviewed had this), but they actually brought me on instead, even though I have no experience in packaging, and said so in the interview.

When the agency that I'm working with called to tell me that the company wanted me, they told me that it was my overall attitude and confidence in my abilities as a designer that led them to choose me over candidates who had the specific experience they were looking for.

It has actually taken me a while to reach this point (I've been doing this for ten years now), but anyone who is good at what they do and has the right attitude can do the same thing.

[Epectasis]

i just wanted to add my thoughts...

reading these threads on the GDF is a fantastic confidence booster.

You have no idea how happy i am about having found this site!

Thanx a million guys!

[Ovaltine]

^ditto that^ and having read all of this, I feel more confident in myself. I am worth a lot more than I give myself credit for. Now I just need to go rewrite some cover letters. :)

[orkaknos12]

Great info, guys.. and one other tidbit of advice. If you're in front of a tribunal of 3 or 4, try to talk to everyone and keep eye contact.. I can't believe how many people I've interviewed that talk only to the smiling sales lead and not the HR, art director or president. It's kind of hard to pick out the person who has the final say, so give everyone a look of confidence and authority... and for god's sake.. don't hide your portfolio in a chest or strap or anything that takes more then 10 seconds to open. We had one clown with a nice looking portfolio that was knotted at the end.. he couldn't get it open for the life of him. Just don't get in that position.

Jon