What the heck is going on in our industry?

[LancasterJohn]

I'm sure that there's been a lot of ranting here already about this subject, but I have to throw in my two cents. What the heck is happening to our industry? I know we are in a recession, but what I have seen lately is pretty damn awful:

1. Salaries are stuck in 1995 pricing, yet expectations of the graphic designer are at an all time high

2. Benefits are disappearing quickly

3. Freelance graphic designers are bidding on jobs at (gasp) $14/per hour. In one case I saw a final bid price of $80 for a logo with 5 versions and modifications.

Whatever happened to standards? Just an FYI: Freelance should never go below $35/hour and I think a kid out of a four year college should get no less than $35,000 a year with full benefits.

-- John

[Kool]

Hi John, welcome to the forum. Chris Gee will be along shortly to give you all the discussion on this you can stand :)

[D-Zine]

Rofl

[morea]

no kidding. Welcome to the forum.

[D-Zine]

A kid right out of a 4 year college but living in Bodunk Tiny Town, USA is probobly not going to get $35,000/yr.

[defjoe]

welcome to the industry

[LancasterJohn]

You're from Savannah? I went to SCAD (Graphic Design, 1996).

I'm saying $35,000 anywhere in the US. I've lived and worked in a few different regions of the country and that pricing is fair and accurate.

[defjoe]

SCAD is for a bunch of hacks.

;)

[morea]

so you don't think that $18,000 a year is fair? Honestly, all we do is "play on the computer" all day... and click the magic "generate logo" button now and then.

No, seriously. We have discussed this a lot, there have even been a few threads that addressed licensing GD professionals.

[vtwin_gary]

35K with no experience?
i don't see it. it took me nearly 10 years to hit anything close to that #.

*edit* welcome to GDF

[morea]

lol @ defjoe!

Ok, I am doing my best to keep up with my librarian duties today, but our network is all pancaked up and page loads are taking ridiculously long. Sorry for the delay.

Graphic Designers - time for a new name? (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9060)

GDers - become bricklayers or architects (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8984)

Good article about changes in design and business (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8726)

GD Industry: Stop eating your young (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7869)

[LancasterJohn]

Hi Morea,
$18K is fair if you're mopping floors in the poorest part of the country. I know what you mean with the "playing on the computer" comments. My wife (also a designer) was told by an AE in her first job a while back "You don't need to go to college to do what you do." He then later joked about how designers make the big bucks.
There are a lot of hacks out there lowering industry standards and I agree with some form of licensing or certification.

[D-Zine]

LMAO @ Joe!! ;)

Lancaster - you Grad SCAD in '96? heh I Grad in '97. I may know you...LOL

[morea]

What would it take to "license" Graphic Designers in the US and Canada? (http://www.graphicdesignforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3490)

[LancasterJohn]

Off the top of my head, maybe AIGA stepping up to the plate and setting up a national licensing/certification. Additionally, perhaps regional certification from art director clubs.

[LancasterJohn]

Hey D-Zine,
That was a shame about Dan Fantauzzi, huh? He was a pretty good guy. I think the only professor still there in the department (from back in the day) is Fhatti Bakoush.

[CHRISGEE]

35K with no experience?
i don't see it. it took me nearly 10 years to hit anything close to that #.


$32K is the average starting pay for for an entry level designer and it's rare for a professional coming out of college in ANY industry to take 10 years to earn $35K.

I started my career in the late 80's -- where starting salary for a junior out of college was $18K -- and was earning $30K by 1992.

A lot of this has to do with market sizes. In very small markets, you'll typically see salaries hover closer to the lower end of the pay scales. However we should be aware of how much we SHOULD be earning if we don't happen to work in a very small market.

Here is a link to the AIGA/Aquent Salary Survey for 2005 (http://www.designersalaries.com/pdf/salarysurvey_042105.pdf). We should be constantly referring back to this and the GAG Handbook to make sure our prices/salaries are up to par.

[D-Zine]

Lancaster -
yeah and damn shame about Fantauzzi. He was a great professor, really. The only one I remember seeing around here lately is Fathi. He was a good professor too. I still see my fave Drawing professor Sandra Reed around. Ever have her? She was awesome.

[morea]

We should be constantly referring back to this and the GAG Handbook to make sure our prices/salaries are up to par.

While I agree with this statement, the problem remains that there are many "desperate" designers (or wannabees) who will take these low paying jobs.

Not that I would want a job that underpaid me this badly, but the fact that they can find someone to accept the ob helps to keep the salaries that are offered low.

[LancasterJohn]

I believe that with a full set of Web and print design skills and a great portfolio a kid can come out of college with a BFA and make $35K -- even in smaller markets.

[LancasterJohn]

Di-Zine,
I didn't know her. Did the GD Dept. move out of Preston (if that's the name anymore) Hall?

[D-Zine]

When I came outta school they were just getting the web classes going so I didn't graduate with strong web skills...just now learning it actually..LOL

[D-Zine]

Lancaster - It's still in Preston Hall...only now its called "Peotter Hall" I believe. Remeber the old tiny rinky dink library in there! Have you seen the new one? Even the bathrooms are amazing..LOL! Its 10 times the size of the old one. lol

[LancasterJohn]

While I agree with this statement, the problem remains that there are many "desperate" designers (or wannabees) who will take these low paying jobs.

Not that I would want a job that underpaid me this badly, but the fact that they can find someone to accept the ob helps to keep the salaries that are offered low.

Undercutting pricing is only going to give businesses a leveraging point to apply across the board.

[CHRISGEE]

Off the top of my head, maybe AIGA stepping up to the plate and setting up a national licensing/certification. Additionally, perhaps regional certification from art director clubs.

That's NOT going to happen any time soon. I run a blog called The Prepared Mind (http://www.thepreparedmind.com) and after recording a podcast with design author Ed Gold about GD certification where we mentioned the role of the AIGA, I took the opportunity to contact AIGA Executive Director Ric Grefe and ask him what the official policy toward GD certification was.

Due to an agreement offline between Ric and myself, I pulled his written response off my blog but suffice to say that the AIGA, curiously, is not even willing to follow Ed Gold's recommendation of conducting a Feasibility Study into the matter in order to find if what the benefits to the industry would be, if any.

Of course, the response is less curious if you look at the AIGA's financials (http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/financialstatement). Almost half of the AIGA's $5+ million in revenues came from membership fees. Nearly the other half was in programs, i.e. events, conventions, seminars, etc. Which, of course, members and non-members attend.

You know what they say. "If it ain't broke....."

The question really is why should the AIGA, as an entity, care about the commoditization of the industry as long as there are 18,000 members willing to shell out $275 each year? To be sure, there will be MORE designers entering the industry which means more potential members. Is this a bad thing for the AIGA? Not really. Their potential member base is growing.

So I would expect less "stepping up to the plate" and more conventions, cocktail parties and seminars from them. Not that I have anything wrong with partying, mind you. But if you want leadership, you may need to look elsewhere.

[morea]

Undercutting pricing is only going to give businesses a leveraging point to apply across the board.

don't blame me... I don't do it. :p

[LancasterJohn]

Hey D-Zine,
Yeah, the Web was just being offered at SCAD when we were there. I started learning it at a small shop in '98 and now designing for the Web is the bulk of my portfolio. I use to "work" at the library in '95. Definitely miss Savannah a LOT.

[LancasterJohn]

Hi Chris,
I bookmarked your site and will definitely take a look later. What you are saying validates why I have never joined any of the graphic design societies or AIGA.

[D-Zine]

You worked at the library? I have probobly seen you then. Savannah is great. I moved away for about 9 months and then asked myself why? So here I am again. It's only 3 hours from my hometown anyways - I've been in Georgia all my life. I bought a house here last year so I don't think I am going anywhere :) lol

[LancasterJohn]

I've gotta' run everybody, but I'll be back later.

[vtwin_gary]

what?
maybe i live in the a tiny villiage in hut with dirt floors but $17 an hour ($35K) with no experience is normal? bullshit! maybe thats what your book says but....nope not happening. i've been at this since the early 90's. i worked for min. wage as a helper with no college & clawed my way up and the most i ever made working for someone else was $18.50 but that company went chapter 11 & i can't find anything paying over $10 an hour (thats less than 21K a year) thats why i now freelance.

just my .02

[morea]

The ads I have seen in my area for an "experienced" graphic designer are offering $8 - $10 per hour. Seriously.

I drive an hour back and forth each day to MY job because there is nothing closer that is worthwhile. And I am going on 6 years in the industry. This is exactly why I want to freelance too.

[vtwin_gary]

The ads I have seen in my area for an "experienced" graphic designer are offering $8 - $10 per hour. Seriously.

you live in the same dirt floor villiage as i do!
i'm glad i'm not alone on this one, i thought i was going crazy.

[Drorain]

Hey Guys,
I got out of school last year starting at 13 an hour...now makeing 13.50, and if I get this new position in the company...I'll be 14...a dollar hop in one year is nice, but I wish I started at the 35k mark.

I'm a production artist and designer...Sqaure one of my GD career. This is right outside of boston too where the cost of living is the third highest in the country.

Not to mention my company offshores to other countries payin 3.50 an hour per head...lucky I still work here.

AND that Lancaster is the real problem...off-shoring, people in other countries will do what we do for dirt cheap. They may not be good at it, but it works for some businesses.

[morea]

you're not crazy, gary. Maybe we both need to move!

I don't live in a really "rural" area or anything either. And cost of living in NY is pretty high too.

[colonel5]

I started @ 13.50 and hopefully will be @ $14/hr by the end of the week (or so i was promised) Everyday i am seeing more and more how important it is to charge fair prices, if enough of us that are actually trying to do good work hold to it it will be corporations and not us bending on the salary issue. I mean am I really supposed to be able to pay for a mortgage, a car, and everyhting else in life on $13.50/hr? I know Minneapolis isn't the most expensive place to live but it's not cheap either

[morea]

hell, my job doesn't pay what it should, especially with all the responsibility I have. And especially spending $60+ a week on gas for my commute.

I was promised a raise after 6 months, and my boss pulled the "oh, I am so sorry, but I can't afford to give you a raise" trick.

I have since been looking for another job, and am finding that most other jobs in the area (even commuting this distance) don't offer more.

[cbscreative]

The offshore design is be coming moore of a problem, butt eye guess if the language bury her doesn't cause two much trouble, it will still work. May be even sum Americans will still by from them.

[CHRISGEE]

you live in the same dirt floor villiage as i do!
i'm glad i'm not alone on this one, i thought i was going crazy.

It's not a question of going crazy. Just different markets. In the larger design markets, you're going to see entry level salaries starting much higher and designers at the senior designer and AD levels earning much higher salaries.

I remember a headhunter forwarding me a CD listing for a position in Philadelphia for $120,000.

Suffice it to say that in some markets there would be NO designers earning salaries that high, under any circumstances.

You have to know what market you live in and what the salary expectations are in that market.

For many, they can and should expect to earn close to $30K right out of design school. For many others, it may very well take years to get to that level.

A designer in a small market that cannot bear those prices should not expect to earn so much, just as a designer in NYC or DC should not be asking $10K - $15K below the industry norm for their experience level.

[colonel5]

lol cbs! another thing that has squelched a lot of my potential business is MonsterTemplate.com, Kudos to them for making a successful business but I've lost probably a good half dozen clients from that site alone (darn referrals and close knit circles) so charging even half price won't cut it close to those guys! argh!

[LancasterJohn]

I've dealt with companies that send work overseas and cbscreative hit the nail on the head. By the time the crap arrives back in the states the files are a mess and most times need to be completely rebuilt. It costs the company more in the end I think.

[cbscreative]

Can't compete with templates, but templates don't create sales for site owners, they just sit there, look pretty, and do nothing. But they're cheap.

[LancasterJohn]

what?
maybe i live in the a tiny villiage in hut with dirt floors but $17 an hour ($35K) with no experience is normal? bullshit! maybe thats what your book says but....nope not happening. i've been at this since the early 90's. i worked for min. wage as a helper with no college & clawed my way up and the most i ever made working for someone else was $18.50 but that company went chapter 11 & i can't find anything paying over $10 an hour (thats less than 21K a year) thats why i now freelance.

just my .02

I did say out of college.

[CHRISGEE]

Can't compete with templates, but templates don't create sales for site owners, they just sit there, look pretty, and do nothing. But they're cheap.

Not only that but at those prices, folks can expect to have hundreds of companies with essentially the SAME SITE!

At first, cheap clients might feel pretty happy about their savings until a client tells them how unprofessional it is that they have the same site as two other sites they saw over the weekend.

The first rule of marketing is differentiation.

Having said that, any client who would buy a cheap template to represent their company is not someone who's going to see the value in investing in their business marketing.

It's probably better to let the MonsterTemplate.com's of the world deal with these clients while designers focus on the companies that desperately need to create a unique brand in the marketplace but don't know how to go about it. THEY really need our help and are willing to pay for it.

[keith1]

Not only that but at those prices, folks can expect to have hundreds of companies with essentially the SAME SITE!

At first, cheap clients might feel pretty happy about their savings until a client tells them how unprofessional it is that they have the same site as two other sites they saw over the weekend.

The first rule of marketing is differentiation.

Having said that, any client who would buy a cheap template to represent their company is not someone who's going to see the value in investing in their business marketing.

It's probably better to let the MonsterTemplate.com's of the world deal with these clients while designers focus on the companies that desperately need to create a unique brand in the marketplace but don't know how to go about it. THEY really need our help and are willing to pay for it.

Survival of the fittest! Or in our case the marketing savvy.

[LancasterJohn]

Chris,
I agree 100% with you. You know, it's the same thing that happens with over-used stock photography. Nothing could be more embarrassing than to have someone inform you that such and such company has the same materials. Also, with a template site, they're not going to be able to tie in as well with existing print materials. Very limiting.

[PrintDriver]

From the other end of the hiring stick, I wouldn't take a kid direct out of school as anything but an intern and only for a specified project duration. I've found far too many who don't listen, who don't care about the details, who don't work, or who just don't show up to be paying any of them 35k a year. With what they teach kids about prepress today, I'm not gonna spend 35K plus benies explaining how to do their job while trying to do mine. More than a little program experience and some really REALLY good references goes a LONG way. Yes, a few bad ones have spoiled it for the rest of you. And I'm jaded.

[LancasterJohn]

PrintDriver,
I've had great and bad experiences hiring designers. What I can say from experience is that if you get a great job candidate -- someone who stands out -- then you make the investment. If they suck, you fire 'em FAST. If they reflect the person/portfolio they presented then you've just bought loyalty and chances are they're going to stick around longer and want to be part of the team.

[colonel5]

Chris,
I agree 100% with you. You know, it's the same thing that happens with over-used stock photography. Nothing could be more embarrassing than to have someone inform you that such and such company has the same materials. Also, with a template site, they're not going to be able to tie in as well with existing print materials. Very limiting.

Yeah After having to suffer with the Microsoft clipart photo gallery for our print pieces i finally convinced my boss and the owner to spring for a year subsription to a pro stock photo website with hundreds of thousands of photos, i just flat out told them that it'd be down right embarassing and hurt our identity if someone received a direct mail piece and a flyer for a block party that used the same image and at the rate we were going it wasn't going to be long till it happened.

[CHRISGEE]

From the other end of the hiring stick, I wouldn't take a kid direct out of school as anything but an intern and only for a specified project duration. I've found far too many who don't listen, who don't care about the details, who don't work, or who just don't show up to be paying any of them 35k a year.

Well anyone can have bad hiring experiences. I've had both good AND bad hiring experiences at all levels.

The reality about $30K is that it's the going rate in many parts of the country. In others, it may be executive pay. I don't know.

With what they teach kids about prepress today, I'm not gonna spend 35K plus benies explaining how to do their job while trying to do mine. More than a little program experience and some really REALLY good references goes a LONG way. Yes, a few bad ones have spoiled it for the rest of you. And I'm jaded.

Well every entry level position in every field is a learn-on-the-job prospect. You have to train juniors. When I was a junior, my ADs and senior designers taught me about pre-press and took me on press runs to show me what to look for and how to handle certain situations. Every type of professional learns this way.

Production techiques like pre-press SHOULD be taught on the job. I learned pre-press on the job, back when there was no Internet (at least not in the form it's in today). After the web became huge, I had to learn a host of other production techniques that had nothing to do with printing whatsoever. That process continues for all of us today.

[morea]

I disagree. Prepress is important. If you call yourself a print designer and can't properly set a file up for print, that's a problem.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, where is this conversation getting us?

[D-Zine]

This is getting old, sorry guys. I'm outta this thread from here on out!

Nice hearing from a fellow SCAD alumni Lancaster! :thumbsup:

[CHRISGEE]

I disagree. Prepress is important. If you call yourself a print designer and can't properly set a file up for print, that's a problem.

I agree. I was merely stating that production techniques change so rapidly, it's really something that designers have to learn on the job. Schools would have to spend all of their time on it.

When I was in design school, we spent a great deal of time learning paste-up, stat camera and other forms of pre-press skills which are essentially extinct nowadays.

Since this was the time before web, I had to learn new pre-press techniqes on the job. I think schools should teach theory, creative problem-solving, design management and some design business.

From there, graduates will end up learning production on the job, whether they focus on Interactive, editorial, print, packaging, advertising, on-air, etc.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, where is this conversation getting us?

Dunno. Where do most conversations get us? LOL!

[morea]

typically, we piss and moan for a while and then the thread dies.

I just didn't know if this was going somewhere. :p

[CHRISGEE]

typically, we piss and moan for a while and then the thread dies.

I just didn't know if this was going somewhere. :p

I'm actually TIRED of always pissing and moaning! We designers are always whining about this on every GD board I've ever been to.

Seems like it's time to figure out actions to take.

We designers are severely underpaid, low-balled and generally viewed as "playing all day". You mad? Good! What now?

[morea]

^ that's exactly where I was going with this.

We're not happy. We are not respected by other professionals. Many of us are not paid fairly.

So what can we DO about it?

[keith1]

Here's what I say


Oh We're Not Gonna Take It
no, We Ain't Gonna Take It
oh We're Not Gonna Take It Anymore

we've Got The Right To Choose And
there Ain't No Way We'll Lose It
this Is Our Life, This Is Our Song
we'll Fight The Powers That Be Just
don't Pick Our Destiny 'cause
you Don't Know Us, You Don't Belong

oh We're Not Gonna Take It
no, We Ain't Gonna Take It
oh We're Not Gonna Take It Anymore

oh You're So Condescending
your Gall Is Never Ending
we Don't Want Nothin', Not A Thing From You
your Life Is Trite And Jaded
boring And Confiscated
if That's Your Best, Your Best Won't Do

oh.....................
oh.....................
we're Right/yeah
we're Free/yeah
we'll Fight/yeah
you'll See/yeah

oh We're Not Gonna Take It
no, We Ain't Gonna Take It
oh We're Not Gonna Take It Anymore

oh We're Not Gonna Take It
no, We Ain't Gonna Take It
oh We're Not Gonna Take It Anymore
no Way!

oh.....................
oh.....................
we're Right/yeah
we're Free/yeah
we'll Fight/yeah
you'll See/yeah

we're Not Gonna Take It
no, We Ain't Gonna Take It
we're Not Gonna Take It Anymore

we're Not Gonna Take It, No!
no, We Ain't Gonna Take It
we're Not Gonna Take It Anymore

just You Try And Make Us
we're Not Gonna Take It
come On
no, We Ain't Gonna Take It
you're All Worthless And Weak
we're Not Gonna Take It Anymore
now Drop And Give Me Twenty
we're Not Gonna Take It
oh Crinch Pin
no, We Ain't Gonna Take It
oh You And Your Uniform
we're Not Gonna Take It Anymore

[LancasterJohn]

Twisted Sister... ROCK ON! What process could be established within this site and spread out to the design community? What about a printable checklist of where you should be at various levels of your career and compensation -- something you could take into an interview from an authority on the subject? After that is established, maybe sending links to at least 5-10 design friends/businesses, etc... Create an awareness of being screwed campaign.

[morea]

can we - legally - do that?

I know that we are not supposed to discuss setting prices with our peers... is this different somehow?

[LancasterJohn]

Why not? The unions do it and laymen are making more than a lot of designers.

[keith1]

Not a bad idea, I think awareness of this is the most important factor and the most easily doable. What I was thinking was putting out a "Wanted Dead or Alive" list on the internet listing the names of the people who take on these jobs for less and have them killed, if still alive of course. But there maybe some legal issues with this. I think your idea may be safer Lancaster John.

[morea]

I'm not sure what the legal issue is, but I think it is the fact that we are NOT unionized that prevents us from setting pricing.

[CHRISGEE]

Twisted Sister... ROCK ON! What process could be established within this site and spread out to the design community? What about a printable checklist of where you should be at various levels of your career and compensation -- something you could take into an interview from an authority on the subject? After that is established, maybe sending links to at least 5-10 design friends/businesses, etc... Create an awareness of being screwed campaign.

Good idea but something like that already exists in the form of the AIGA/Aquent Salary Guide. No need to re-invent the wheel.

But I agree that we need to find ways to spread the word in the design community.

One way is podcasting. Since starting my podcast a month ago and being added to iTunes, downloads have surged to over 150 PER DAY and keep climbing. However, last I checked, I'm the only graphic designer podcasting about GD issues. This has to change, if it hasn't already. Search "Marketing" in the iTunes podcasting search and you'll find tons of podcasts.

Interestingly enough, what I find is that not only designers are downloading my podcasts. I am getting emails from non-designers too. We have a real opportunity to inject conversation about what we do into people's cars, iPods and computers like never before. LET'S USE IT!

I got started podcasting for an amazingly low amount of money. Under $100. All I needed was a shareware program for $40 and a mic/headset for $50. The rest was free software (not including my web host but I had that account anway).

Here's the tutorial that got me started (http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2005/01/25/podcast.html).

[LancasterJohn]

"Wanted Dead or Alive" list? Hmmm... I like it. We could also put detonating collars on repeat offenders.

[CHRISGEE]

I'm not sure what the legal issue is, but I think it is the fact that we are NOT unionized that prevents us from setting pricing.

I don't think we have to set pricing. Just inform others as to what current pricing is going for at various experience levels. Basically, re-distribute the AIGA/Aquent salary guide and encourage designers to buy the GAG Handbook.

That should help some of the problem.

[LeftBrain Artist]

First of all, what's the problem with our industry? Too many designers - While attending the state university in the 90's, I believe there was a general perception that graphic design was an easy way to make money. With the explosion of time saving technology, I think people got the impression that they could reap the revenues attained in the past for a fraction of the labor previously involved. That, and replacing the previously messy, tedious tools and processes with the sleek, sexy computer made the industry very attractive to a large number of people. As a result, the market was flooded with new entries into the work force, and now has driven down the value of our labor - which as many have noted has remained frozen since the mid 90s. This freeze is actually a reduction in pay as costs of other goods have not been frozen since the 90s. Look at property values. There are other problems, but the excess influx of design labor is the single most important problem with our industry, and will not resolve itself for another 15 or 20 years I would guess. The market works slowly.

Second, is 30K out of a 4 year college fair? Absolutely. Is it the average? Perhaps, but if it is, that means there is a vast wage gap between the low end and high end of the pay scale - which incidentally would be consistent with our economy in general.

Allow me to explain: I know what I made; I spent 8 years in school to get a 4 year BFA and a 2 year Associates Degree in Graphic Design - and entered into GD making 22K per year. Based on what I've seen in the local community, employment opportunities, and the forum - I would estimate the bulk of entry level designers (Lets say 65%) make around 20K. So, (calculator clicking) to average 30K the other 35% would average salaries of 48.8K per year. This is not unheard of; (my boss's son got a design job starting right out of 4 yr. college at 50K/yr.). So based on what I've seen I propose the following model. 65% of entry level designers start out on the bottom tier of 20K, 15% start at the upper tier of around 50K, and the other 20% fall somewhere in the middle, probably more often that not in the mid to upper 20s.

What does this mean? The concentration of wealth inherent in our system is reflected in the payscales of designers. Many people think its impolite to talk about how much they make. Perhaps so, but failure to discuss these trends in detail only keeps the majority on the bottom in the dark and complacent. We are taught that in our system the cream rises to the top, but this is often not the case. Our society is not a bottle of milk. The exaltation of the few samples of upward mobility through our economic castes is orchestrated by the upper eschelon of society in an effort to keep those of us on the bottom industrious. Take a walk through the front office of any major corporation - do you see the workings of a well oiled management machine hard at work, or do you see a bunch of fools hastily minimizing web pages or a FreeCell game who occasionally have a meeting. Is it any wonder China is kicking our ass - look at the clowns in charge of our government and corporations. I hate to say it, but the people in power right now are there only because they've bought their position, and they'll continue to be there until they piss away the money honest, smart, hardworking Americans have made them. And then the honest, hardworking Americans will have to pick up the pieces, yet again.

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

[LancasterJohn]

I don't think we have to set pricing. Just inform others as to what current pricing is going for at various experience levels. Basically, re-distribute the AIGA/Aquent salary guide and encourage designers to buy the GAG Handbook.

That should help some of the problem.

This is probably the quickest and most efficient solution to the problem. Professional standards are slipping fast folks and there needs to be a benchmark for quality, otherwise we're going to be serving fries with our design. Could a benchmark be developed within this community and spread out??

[keith1]

A lot of times these new or deperate designers will take anything because they don't know any better. They only know design, they never learned the business side of things which is sad and a lot of schools don't prepare students for the real world. I used to be one of those designer's 4 years ago *ducks head* but I've learned what to do and what not to do and I've learned that I'll never stop learning. I think it'd be great to have others podcasting. Honestly for myself I'm not a natural born podcaster so I'll stick to other methods of spreading the knowledge. For instance perhaps when meeting with clients and defintitely on my website and promotional materials.

[CHRISGEE]

Very well said, Leftbrain!

[LancasterJohn]

Gotta agree with Leftbrain, but there's nothing much our pissed on industry can do until there is organization and recognition that this is still a white collar industry.

[LeftBrain Artist]

Thanks Chris! I try. Been one of those days. Started out with Central Air going out as I leave for work (so I get to fix that when I get home), locked the keys inside my house, so I had to spread the door with a jack so I could drive to work, started re-layout of a POP that was a series of tabbed pages bound on the left side, now is bound on the bottom which totally reverses the pagination as you look at the spreads which is making my brain hurt.

Yep, the glass is definitely half empty today - but I'm still smilin'!

[DeleteYourself]

Just a suggestion:

More time spent *working* at work, and less time posting in internet forums, might result in higher salaries for certain graphic designers. I'm just saying.

[D-Zine]

good point DY!

Opps - I know I said I was outta this convo but...you know how it is!

[CHRISGEE]

Just a suggestion:

More time spent *working* at work, and less time posting in internet forums, might result in higher salaries for certain graphic designers. I'm just saying.

Designer salaries were low, long before the Internet or Internet forums came along.

[keith1]

Good Advice DY. I'm done, this is my official last post here. Back to work! It's been nice meeting everyone. I've learned a lot. Auf Weidersehen!!!

Happy trails to you until we meet again...

[DeleteYourself]

Designer salaries were low, long before the Internet or Internet forums came along.

It was a joke. Laugh. :rolleyes:

[CHRISGEE]

It was a joke. Laugh. :rolleyes:

:-P

[keith1]

Oh a joke, ok well back to the forum. Oh yeah thanks for the warm send off when I announced my forum retirement :(

[DeleteYourself]

We knew you'd be back, keith! :D

[Cyclops]

hehe... you are complaining about salary.. hehe.. here there is no specialized school that will teach you graphic design. There is no job called Graphic designer... the nearest thing is called (word by word translation) Computer Manipulant (Operator). Most of the designers here makes about 3,500$/year and that after a 3-5 years experience, the lucky ones make 12,000 - 18,000$/year... I for example I make around 6,000$/Year and I manage to live with that king of money. I learned design all by myself, and I started out with a job payed 70$/month 5 years ago... so there could be worst ;)

[LeftBrain Artist]

Just a suggestion:

More time spent *working* at work, and less time posting in internet forums, might result in higher salaries for certain graphic designers. I'm just saying.


Yes it might, but so might investing in a pair of quality kneepads.

For refinishing hardwood floors - a lucrative trade I hear!

[Crimson]

Aren't we like any creative industry. Music has stars and a whole lot of cover bands that want to be big but can't sing for shit. I've been through it and worked 10 hard years to get to my 35K job. The sad fact I had to accept when talking with job counselors is that this is the thing I'm best doing. I tried selling cars and working at a trash company because I had kids to feed. The only career I will make money in is graphics. I'll always keep learning and struggling to make ends meet. You want to beat the suckers that sell cheap ass templates then show your client the quality you can offer. Make you designs like a Lexus and not a Pinto. So if you a moaning to scare me away from a graphics then I sorry to tell you- This is what I was meant to do.

[LeftBrain Artist]

Aren't we like any creative industry. Music has stars and a whole lot of cover bands that want to be big but can't sing for shit. I've been through it and worked 10 hard years to get to my 35K job. The sad fact I had to accept when talking with job counselors is that this is the thing I'm best doing. I tried selling cars and working at a trash company because I had kids to feed. The only career I will make money in is graphics. I'll always keep learning and struggling to make ends meet. You want to beat the suckers that sell cheap ass templates then show your client the quality you can offer. Make you designs like a Lexus and not a Pinto. So if you a moaning to scare me away from a graphics then I sorry to tell you- This is what I was meant to do.

Music also has some underground bands that are really good, but don't receive the recognition they deserve.

Personally, I'm not moaning to scare you away, I'm just moaning to remind myself I can moan. Complaining is fun!

[Mynock]

I hate these threads. They are long winded and I don't think we really end up solving or resolving anything. It's like a one-legged duck, we just go in circles. I haven't read any of these posts for this matter and others like it. I deal with it. I didn't come into this job for the money, if I wanted money I would have stuck with Computer Science. We are getting paid relatively the same becuase it requires less time to do the same amount of work, and there's no getting around it. I am just happy I can do what I love and get paid for it. If I am doing what I love I will adjust my living to fit my income, and if I can't make it work I'll quit. I go do something else were I can make a living, and I'll stop complaining about it. It may not be what I want to do, but I will be feeding my family as Sprewell would say. We's creative types why can't we have creative ways to deal with are money or our career. I just know threads keep popped up and up, and I'd rather talk about something else. Ok, I'll get off my soap box and see what you people have to say. I might be totally off base or I might just be rambling about nothing related to what has been discussed in this thread. Let me know either way.

[keith1]

I think you're alone Mynock because I got into this field to be rich! Dolla dolla bill yall!

[9iron]

A dental assistant makes $35, A plumber can make $35, An electrician...well you get it. Don't sell yourself short, you get what you pay for and so do they.

[keith1]

I on the other hand make $550,000 a year as an in-house designer for a mom & pop shop. So don't give up hope.

[LancasterJohn]

A dental assistant makes $35, A plumber can make $35, An electrician...well you get it. Don't sell yourself short, you get what you pay for and so do they.

Thank you 9iron. I use the same analogy when arguing this case -- why should you make less money than a plumber or tradesman? After all work is virtually guaranteed in those industries and from what I've seen many are working hourly and getting time and a half, ridiculous benefits, etc... Basically, they are on a frickin gravy train, first class.

As designers, especially freelancers, we have to maintain dignity and not undercut market values. People know that when they hire a plumber it's going to be at least $50 an hour. There is no standard for our industry, especially after looking at elance.com or guru.com. It's absolutely pathetic that designers are willing to whore themselves at $14 per hour on those sites.

Some people in this posting thought I was off mark in saying that a kid out of college should make $35K a year or a freelancer no less than $35 an hour. One of them even sounded angry. I say it is that kind of response that is going to keep dragging this industry down. I personally believe that a hard-working graduate with a quality portfolio and an aggressive presentation can command $35K a year or $35 an hour.

As far as the $14 an hour hacks on the sites I mentioned... well, you do only get what you pay for. NEVER SELL YOURSELF SHORT. Clients do get suspicious of low pricing.

[morea]

here is a great article from the creative forum:

Educate Lowballers and Stop Lowballing (http://thecreativeforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155)

[LancasterJohn]

I just finished reading the Lowballers article and have sent it to three creatives and my former employer (who always paid well). That article is right on the money and I've bookmarked it for reference. Thanks!

[morea]

I was pleased to find it after our conversation today. Glad I could pass the info on!

[CHRISGEE]

What a great article, Morea! Thanks for posting it. I'm going to post it to some other GD boards and also to my blog.

[levonk]

You guys should feel lucky you get paid.

Where I come from $10/hr. is considered an overkill. I started at $3/hr. and worked my way up to 8 in 18 months. After that I started freelancing, and now I have a small business (design/prepress/print).

Today anybody with a computer is a designer. Last week I was outbid by a highschool student for a business card, and my bid said FOC for the design. This was an old customer, so I decided I would design their new business cards for free, but charge them regular prices for the printing.

2 days ago I was outbid by another publisher, who only quoted the price of printing and materials for a catalog. No design price. Not even page layout price.