thanks very informative!!!.........want more more!!!

Very good first post for this new section!

I'm sure I'll add some of my sage advice later too. But not at 1:15 in the morning.

I'm trying to run a business, and while I demand a deposit before beginning, my bf who is the other half of the business doesn't do this. He spends too much time and practically works for free. He thinks that it is worth it if the clients tell all his friends how great he is, but all they do is pay him too little too. But what can you do?

Great idea. One Question: How much actual, paying, business has this gotten? Alternative: Get a list of contacts you can call right now, using their name. People who do hire and are or soon will be in the market. These are detailed, quality leads. Second, get an articulate, specific, benefit-laden testimonial.

If they haven't the time or ability to provide such a testimonial, don't trust they'll somehow change in referral situations. Secondly, what exactly are they saying? More likely they're ending it with "...and the moron did it for free."

What makes a better story? The great graphic design. Or how your "great negotiating skills" drove down the price to zero/next to nothing? How often do you yourself talk about the great bargain you got at a store or garage sale, or whatever. You think this isn't going to make it into the story they're telling all their friends?

There's a business book, "Beware the Naked Man Who Offers You His Shirt." If they can't pay, it's the likely symptom of not having the work-producing networks which make word-of-mouth beneficial. And if they won't pay, the word of mouth is going to reflect their estimation the work isn't worth paying for as well. It is far from likely, if they couldn't be bothered to pay, they'll somehow be bothered to refer you.

One individual asked for a free package design for their beer product. So I said fine. Send me some proof you have an advertising budget, inventory, contracted distributors. Just the bare minimum required as some sketchy evidence of a going concern. Never heard from them again.

Interesting point. I've never thought of that before (probably because I don't usually believe the BS that most people tell me) but I believe it's 100% correct.

I guess it's because he HAS done work in the past for free that he is willing to do stuff for minimal pay. While we can't discuss pricing on here, let's just say he charges these guys around 30% what I would feel comfortable charging.

I'm not going to argue with him about this though, he's my bf and I love him and if he enjoys doing these jobs for a pittance, then he can do them all he likes. However, he knows that I have contracts that he can send out and I can negotiate on his behalf, he just chooses not to. I think maybe this is the way with self taught designers/artists. They just don't realise what they are worth.

No, that was my last job. I got into design so I could stop doing that.

I think I got into design so I could!

>>He thinks that it is worth it if the clients tell all his friends how great he is, but all they do is pay him too little too. But what can you do?<<

He thinks it's worth it... to be known as someone who will work for less pay than is fair? Yeah, I can see how that kind of free publicity would move your career. In what direction, is another question. Design as a wholesale commodity... when it works as a business, it's never for the benefit of the creative.

>>he's my bf and I love him and if he enjoys doing these jobs for a pittance, then he can do them all he likes<<

None of my business, but lots of yours: he's your business partner? Do you realize what this will do for your half of the business, long-term? This might be a recipe for more than just business failure.

Unless you're really wealthy to begin with, and giving away money (by undercutting) is just a fun thing to do. In which case, I have some other, more fun suggestions on how to achieve this.

Let's just say we're 2 freelancers working under the same name. We have day jobs - when he comes home, he used to draw his own characters for fun. Now he comes home he draws for other people. The only 2 differences is that he doesn't draw his own characters as such anymore and he gets a little money for it. When he's so busy he has to choose which projects to take, he can charge more. That's what he thinks...

And with that mindset, that's exactly how it will stay. Until he can treat it as a legitimate business, you're stuck with the current size, revenue and type of clients.

Well, here is what I do:
I've stopped "whoring" myself out as much as I can. I no longer offer discounts. I have a sign over my desk that has my base prices, and those prices stand. No matter what the sob story is.

I also have three contracts. I have the short, tiny little baby contract for the client that just wants business cards. I see no reason to throw the 8-page AIGA contract at them. I have a three-page contract that I created as a smaller version of the AIGA contract, and then I have MY adaptation of the big contract - where I have ADDED to it to cover me butt with the BIG clients.

I feel you have to have base prices. They can't go up and down, you can't look hungry for work ever. Ever. You have to project the image of being so busy, so successful, that they know they are dealing with a great artist. That in turn justifies your prices - because it makes it clear you are worth what you are asking because other people are willing to pay it to get your high-quality work.

So true greyghost. Continuing the theme: Once you start "whoring" yourself, you can't turn into a "pimp".

I did an internship at a company where they would take the assignment for x Hours an y euro's. Sometimes they knew upfront thast the number of hours was too small, but they did it anyway, because they didn't want to lower their hourly rate.

I also heard from a lot of people that they take you a lot more serious if you ask a reasonable price (market-average or something) then ask a 1/3.