Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.
(Crowd sourced design sites)- Your thoughts? Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse
Search Search Module
Collapse

Advertisement Advertisement Module
Collapse

Featured Images Featured Images Module
Collapse

Mediabistro Creative Sites Mediabistro Creative Sites Module
Collapse
Latest Topics Latest Topics Module
Collapse

  • georgemaharis1
    HI!
    georgemaharis1
    Just posted in printing and prepress. Hope to see it approved shortly!
    Today, 12:36 AM
  • georgemaharis1
    Register from a Gerber to a Roland or vice versa?
    georgemaharis1
    I need to be able to routinely prototype / make comps of self adhesive labels. This includes both clear and opaque. I have access to a ROLAND VS which does a VERY good job, but the metallics it can...
    Today, 12:14 AM
  • desmiley1
    Reply to Illustrator won't let me highlight text?
    desmiley1
    Same here, new account...Thanks so much for posting this answer. The zombie post lives and has been re-awakened for 2014!
    Yesterday, 10:32 PM
  • Sbower
    Reply to Re Branding my personal logo.
    Sbower
    Thank you everyone for you comments they have been very helpful. I do have to agree after looking it over again I don't think the icon reads very effectively. And therefore makes it a bit useless. And...
    Yesterday, 09:58 PM
  • PanToshi
    Comment on Are you able to read the text?
    PanToshi
    No prob. The vBulletin forum software is really kinda… well, borked up. I'm glad the workaround works for ya.
    Yesterday, 09:51 PM
Advertisement Advertisement Module
Collapse

Sponsors Sponsors Module
Collapse

X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
    The average number of entries per competition per user is 3.
    The BIGGEST THING that strikes me as odd, and personally I find to be the most laughable is graphic designers will take an unpaid internship(s) working 20 or more hours a week and hand over copyrights for free. Or maybe they will get a cup of coffee and a bagel. But when there is an opportunity to show off you skills and possible get paid, (yes REAL money for your work) you get insulted, and you feel entitled to more.

    You look at unpaid internship and you see it as an opportunity to build your portfolio and networking. You have to commute and meet people, what a hassle for being paid nothing... This is a simple and easy way for you to practice your craft, build your portfolio with a chance of making money. Not to mention you can score a consulting gig out of it, because some companies hire from the site.
    an internship is something you can put on your resume. don't know how many people would put "won a flip flop contest online" on their resume. That chance to make a couple bucks on a contest doesn't' compare to the skills and experience learned at an internship in the long run. you never did mention the percentage you pay the lucky winner, what kind of REAL money can they make?

    "There's something about turning the pages of a book or magazine and the felling of rubbing your hands across the words."

    This is my pen tool. There are many like it, but this one is MINE. My pen tool is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My pen tool without me is useless. Without my pen tool, I am useless.

    there is no grey area when it comes to 1 color logos.

    Comment


    • #62
      Exactly sketcher, the logos sourced through these type of sites are generally missing the most important technical aspects of a logo, or they fall apart in situations where gradients cannot be used. It's kind of like if you were to by a car from a picture with no specs or a house without getting it inspected first. It's a classic case of you get what you pay for. I don't bother with these type of sites because the typical "prize" amount isn't worth my time, not because I can't compete.

      Crowd sourcing sites tend to give true professionals business anyhow, people eventually need the proper file formats and/or solutions that work without gradients. Funny part is, they usually end up having to compromise somewhere and in the long run the "prize" cost plus the cost of getting it fixed and the cost of the time it takes to commit to all of this is probably pretty close to being inline with cost of hiring a professional designer from the get go.
      Last edited by kemingMatters; 05-11-2012, 01:24 PM.
      Design is not decoration.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by jessica21 View Post

        Let's look that the economics

        I have randomly picked designs that I like. Each contest has entries ranging from 14 to 288, yet only one won.

        Member for a week, entered 7 times and won once.
        Member for 2 years, entered 184 times and won 11 times.
        Member for 2 months, entered 94 times and won 8 times.
        Member for 1 month, entered 544 times and won 111 times.
        Member for 1 year and 1 month, entered 222 times and 8 wins.
        Member for 3 weeks, entered 90 times, and 6 wins.
        member for 3 years, entered 101 times and 7 wins.
        If I'm reading the above correctly:

        Member 1 got paid for 14% of total work done.
        Member 2 got paid for 6% of total work done.
        Member 3 got paid for 9% of total work done.
        Member 4 got paid for 20% of total work done.
        Member 5 got paid for 4% of total work done.
        Member 6 got paid for 7% of total work done.
        Member 7 got paid for 7% of total work done.

        Of your examples, the highest paid member still wasted 80% of his/her time. To me, that's unacceptable. Even if I can come up with the coolest looking logos ever, no business is going to hire me if 80% of what I've done has been rejected.

        Maybe I'm not understanding it all.
        Shop smart. Shop S-Mart.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
          Member for a week, entered 7 times and won once.
          Member for 2 years, entered 184 times and won 11 times.
          Member for 2 months, entered 94 times and won 8 times.
          Member for 1 month, entered 544 times and won 111 times.
          Member for 1 year and 1 month, entered 222 times and 8 wins.
          Member for 3 weeks, entered 90 times, and 6 wins.
          member for 3 years, entered 101 times and 7 wins.


          The average number of designers is 109 per contest.
          $484,554 for this month and 1,551 contest so about $312 a contest.
          $312 per win? After numerous entries over a period of time? For your 5th example, that's a yearly salary of $2,496 for doing nearly $70,000 worth of work. And I'm sure you picked only the winningest contestants who happen to actually have talent that they're willing to waste. So, yeah. Sign me up.

          And how many of those designs were truly original and don't consist of stolen elements? Was the market fully researched? Was the client asked to answer specific questions about their company and their desired role in their industry so they could design something individual to them that truly suits their needs? Was the client provided with a full set of logos for use on different media? Were all those files set up properly?

          Regarding unpaid internships, there's usually a lot to gain for an intern. It's industry experience and networking at a point in their careers when they have none. It's pretty darn difficult to land even an entry-level job without either of them. Winning crowdsourcing contests does neither.

          That said, there are situations where companies take full advantage of unpaid interns, and there's been a backlash. There have even been lawsuits against companies that just use them as free slave labor. It may be the beginning of the end for the unpaid internship practice, or at least a reasonable change in how it can be utilized. (clicky)
          Last edited by Virgo Nightingale; 05-11-2012, 01:51 PM.
          ___________
          Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.

          blog/portfolio

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Virgo Nightingale View Post
            $312 per win? After numerous entries over a period of time? For your 5th example, that's a yearly salary of $2,496 for doing nearly $70,000 worth of work.
            Haha, but to be fair, #4 earns a yearly salary of about 415k. Not too shabby.

            Comment


            • #66
              I saw #4. And there's no way someone can create that many logos in a month and have them all be copyrightable, well thought out/researched, and properly created. Not without them being pure crap anyway. I suspect #4 is actually a team of 'designers' as opposed to just one. Or a typo.
              ___________
              Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me.

              blog/portfolio

              Comment


              • #67
                Funny that this defense of crowd sourcing actually exposes its insidiousness once you scrutinize it.

                Just take a look at those members/wins list and things REALLY look ridiculous.

                Not uncommon once someone decides to defend the indefensible.
                Heresy is a victimless crime.

                Comment


                • #68
                  And 312 is an average. That particular contest may have only netted $25 for the winner each time...

                  This is a funny thread. It just shows how far some people will stretch things to justify their ends. Not just in crowdsourcing, but in anything.
                  <ninja'd by seamas>

                  It would be more interesting if they gave their own numbers rather than randomly picked 'ones I liked'. Most of the randomly picked ones on any of those sites runs more in the $50 range rather than the $300 range.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    This thread, with it's crowdsourcing defenders, has become spam.
                    "I love deadlines. I love the 'whooshing' sound they make when they go by." - Doug Adams
                    LinkedIn

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Jessica, you must be so proud.

                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post

                      Well lucky for you Print Driver, would you like to explain your point to all the Former Caterpillar employees that were laid off because of market conditions and a lost contract?
                      A weak economy is going to make things tough all around. That has nothing to do with your argument being about whether or not crowd sourcing Graphic Designers is the same as construction workers bidding on a job.

                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      If what you say is true then there would not be such a high flop rate for start-up design firms
                      Start up firms are nothing more than small businesses selling a service. Do I really need to dig up the statistics of just how many small business fail within the first year? Nice Red Herring, buddy.

                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      or are you just stating that there we have a monopoly and Trust issues again where very few powers control the top which allow for no new entries.... Oh wait, Boston Dynamic proved that wrong and so did the inventors of the SAW. Design firms especially ones who are owned by business partners bet the farm and they risk losing but sometimes they win and upset the balance. I am happy for you that your position is not threatened by one bad bid but that is not the case for the majority of pitch based fields, especially the small firms that less than 20 employees. I work for an Openbravo partner (ERP/SAP) it's only a company of about 16 or so. Every bid we place needs to be spot on or we will need to cut developers and interns.

                      Pre-qualified system is one that refers to Sergeant & Lundy or Lockheed Martin or Northrop Grumman, not the small engineering firms that struggle to get a footing. A lot of engineers are part of consultant groups that get paid based on bids won, if the company does not bring in any money then there is no way to pay.
                      Big words and sarcasm do not qualify as a valid argument. I took the liberty of highlighting the actual points made in these two paragraphs.

                      Your arrogance must have prevented you from comprehending a very specific point about the difference between "contests" and "bidding." I will explain again as if it really matters to me whether or not you "get it".

                      "Bidding" involves:
                      • a sales pitch
                      • competition from a limited number of professionals
                      • the company you are vying for does not keep your work
                      • the job is not complete when the bid is made

                      "competitions" or "crowd sourcing":
                      • Complete work is submitted
                      • no "Sales" is involved
                      • They keep your completed work
                      • The odds of "winning" are varied

                      This makes your argument invalid because you continue to refer to "bidding" as if it is equivalent to "crowd sourcing." Bidding is how it is supposed to be. Contests and Crowd sourcing are exploitative.

                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      If you want barriers to entry in a field you need objective and quantifiable units of measure.... That is not something that is included in an art degree.
                      Why not? Are you saying that Art Degrees are worthless? That you do not learn pertinent skills relevant to that field of study? Because it's JUST art, you can't possibly learn anything "objective" or "quantifiable" that can't be learned on one's own? How pretentious of you. But it just proves to us, the people you are trying to convince that you AREN'T talking out of your bung hole, how extensive your knowledge of our field of expertise really is.

                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      If you are saying that anyone can just get a cracked copy of photo shop and be able to win these contests, then I think you are the ones that are undercutting your own field.... What you have just said is "I cannot compete with new entries who have no experience even though I have a 4 year degree and worked in the field for X years" That means you're out-of-date and out of touch, clamoring to grasp onto a fading reality as a new one consumes then discards you.
                      You're kidding, right? Only in Graphic Design can a software pirate eating Doritos in his Mamma's basement with absolutely no effort at an education take food out of my kid's mouth despite my years of training and hell in the actual workforce gaining experience. And attitudes like yours are the reason for it.

                      I spent the time, effort, and money to learn my trade. And only in this field am I viewed as greedy and/or insecure in my abilities for becoming indignant over the fact that many people view my education and experience as a moot point when bidding for jobs!

                      Business owners are cheap. If they think they can cut a corner where cost is concerned, they will do it.

                      The general idea with design is that anybody can do it. Few people justify the cost of experience where design is concerned like they would construction. Because to them, experience doesn't mean anything and ANYBODY can be creative. They do not understand that Graphic Design IS NOT ART. We are not BOB ROSS painting happy little trees smoking POT all day. We are trained professionals. Truly successful companies do understand this, and spend an exorbitant amount on "branding" (which is actually what we do in various ways). And those are the companies that survive recessions because of that successful branding.

                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      "a cracked version of Photoshop that's lifting an existing logo or illustration from the internet, changing it a little bit and making a whiz-bang low resolution piece of crap out if it, while calling it a logo." This statement does not fit with the entries that I have seen on [croudsourcing site], they are amazing.
                      And so they MUST be. Because YOU think so with your experienced eye for design and marketing.

                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      I feel like I can go there and get a quality design that I would not be able to create myself.
                      Yes. You feel like you can go there and get a quality design, because:
                      • It's cheap
                      • You don't know what quality design consists of, but think you do

                      You would not be able to create it yourself because
                      • You don't know what quality design consists of
                      • You have no training


                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      There are rules and a code of conduct that filters out the unoriginal and bad entries.
                      That makes it all better then.

                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      Here is a counter idea: if the competition is so bad then why can't you beat them with higher quality designs?
                      It's not that we can't. It's that we won't. There is a very big difference.
                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      You complain about the compensation... Graphic design runs in a market like every other industry- if the supply is high then the price is low, so the only way to make the price go high is to increase the demand.... (not likely since there are 22.5 million companies in the US already, http://www.census.gov/econ/susb/) or the supply needs to go down. So take your ball and leave the game that way the remaining can charge more. But once prices go up, then more suppliers enter the market. So get used to the low prices.
                      This is not milk or toilet paper, buddy. And I'm sure we all understand the concept of supply vs. demand. Oh wait...do we? With our bogus education and inferior minds and all...

                      It doesn't change the fact that business practices that are designed to bring the cost of a specifically industry down to a fraction of what it should be is WRONG.

                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      Let's look that the economics
                      *contest site link removed*

                      I have randomly picked designs that I like. Each contest has entries ranging from 14 to 288, yet only one won.

                      Member for a week, entered 7 times and won once.
                      Member for 2 years, entered 184 times and won 11 times.
                      Member for 2 months, entered 94 times and won 8 times.
                      Member for 1 month, entered 544 times and won 111 times.
                      Member for 1 year and 1 month, entered 222 times and 8 wins.
                      Member for 3 weeks, entered 90 times, and 6 wins.
                      member for 3 years, entered 101 times and 7 wins.


                      The average number of designers is 109 per contest.
                      $484,554 for this month and 1,551 contest so about $312 a contest.

                      The average number of entries per competition per user is 3.
                      Who cares.
                      Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                      The BIGGEST THING that strikes me as odd, and personally I find to be the most laughable is graphic designers will take an unpaid internship(s) working 20 or more hours a week and hand over copyrights for free. Or maybe they will get a cup of coffee and a bagel. But when there is an opportunity to show off you skills and possible get paid, (yes REAL money for your work) you get insulted, and you feel entitled to more.

                      You look at unpaid internship and you see it as an opportunity to build your portfolio and networking. You have to commute and meet people, what a hassle for being paid nothing... This is a simple and easy way for you to practice your craft, build your portfolio with a chance of making money. Not to mention you can score a consulting gig out of it, because some companies hire from the site.
                      Internships are real world experience. And many other professions have them. They are a sure fire way to help get you hired for a good job in your field. Possibly by the company who provided the internship.

                      This is something that Schooling can not teach you or do for you.

                      It is also something that doodling for contests in your Mom's basement in between Raids in World of Warcraft on pirated software doesn't do for you.
                      Last edited by garricks; 05-11-2012, 05:25 PM.
                      I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.
                      -Louisa May Alcott

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        There are rules and a code of conduct that filters out the unoriginal and bad entries.

                        You are telling this to people who know better.


                        Just about every member here knows of several designers who have had their work ripped off and posted on sites like this.

                        Its a common situation and the proprietors of these sites almost always fight against the original creator.
                        Only when lawyers are involved do they back down.
                        Then they have the nerve to claim that their "rules" worked.

                        It's total slime.
                        Heresy is a victimless crime.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Roth View Post
                          Oh, look at you, with your research and your half baked ideas. Adorable.

                          Yeah and the cooked numbers from the crowdsource site this is a total scam from a contingent that feels that they are doing us a services.

                          Why don't they provide a crowdsourced INDEPENDENT forensic Accounting review and show due diligence.



                          If you think the Crowdsource hasn't gone to other professions think again the Law sector is increasingly being Crowdsource / Outsourced and any recent law graduate these days is not going to be picked up for articling as fast as in previous era's.

                          I say a POX! on all of these crowdsourced / free sources of competition they give no one a fair shake and it's a race to the bottom in terms or society and how we expect to be at LEAST fairly compensated for work.
                          Last edited by MikeHun; 05-11-2012, 03:09 PM.
                          "After all is said and done, more is said than done."
                          Aesop

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            That's awesome. I hardly ever see anyone throw a good pox out anymore.
                            Shop smart. Shop S-Mart.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              but that is not the case for the majority of pitch based fields, especially the small firms that less than 20 employees.
                              I actually didn't read that entire diatribe against my post but this stands out in the quote above.
                              Time and again, people in smaller companies cry Wah and No-Spec when it comes to bidding (which as pointed out is different from crowd sourcing). If you don't have the marketing budget to be floating huge quotes and don't have the chops to fulfill them, then you watch your budget and your hiring practices until you gain experience in the market. If you don't have the work there will be layoffs. It's happening all around right now. As for Caterpillar, if you look at their entire history, you'll see they've had more than their fair share of ups and downs, some of them employee Union related. Another whole can of worms.

                              I've worked with 3-person design firms who landed 6-figure projects and they handle them everyday. I work with a freelancer who does 5 and 6 figure work all on his own. It isn't the size of the company that matters. It's all in how the work is handled. If you can't visualize project overlap then you can't plan ahead.

                              Like I said, no one I know, including myself, feels threatened by crowdsourcing. It's a different caliber of worker and a totally different caliber of client. Made for each other.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                                "a cracked version of Photoshop that's lifting an existing logo or illustration from the internet, changing it a little bit and making a whiz-bang low resolution piece of crap out if it, while calling it a logo." This statement does not fit with the entries that I have seen on [croudsourcing site], they are amazing. I feel like I can go there and get a quality design that I would not be able to create myself. There are rules and a code of conduct that filters out the unoriginal and bad entries.
                                Most of your other information has already been proven wrong, so I won't address it further. However, I will say that just because you think something "looks amazing" on screen does not make it a good logo. Even if the logo design itself is excellent, there is no guarantee that the person who designed it knows anything about the reproduction of that logo. I have had 4 clients come to me in the past year who had used [croudsourcing site], and 3 who used other crowdsourcing sites. The reason they all came to me is the "amazing" logo they got consisted of a .jpg file. And they were coming to me because they took their job to get something printed, or get decals for their car, or get it engraved onto something, and then they had a rude awakening...
                                http://brokenspokedesign.com

                                Comment

                                Mediabistro A division of Prometheus Global Media home | site map | advertising/sponsorships | careers | contact us | help courses | browse jobs | freelancers | content | member benefits | reprints & permissions terms of use | privacy policy Copyright © 2014 Mediabistro Inc. call (212) 389-2000 or email us
                                Working...
                                X