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  • #76
    As a printer, I deal with combatting internet comapnies that have specialties in running 4/4/ flyers, business cards, folded brochures, etc...., I do not try to compete with the price they give to my customers, I tell them to go try them - and when they find all of the restrictions or they get less than they wanted they come beck.

    It is the same here, you are free to go to those sites to get a bid, but you get what you get, it may not be what you need but you now have it..I will be glad to recreate you a file from them that will work but you will not like the bill.

    There is a craft to do something well, there is not in doing something on a wing and a prayer. I get logos all the time from customers that get them from these wholesale places, and when they see what it will cost me to recreate the logo they complain that it is twice what they paid for it - not my fault, you got what you paid for.

    A jpeg is not a logo, it will look good on your website but it will not print well.
    "You're only given one little spark of madness. You musn't lose it" - Robin Williams

    Comment


    • #77
      I'm not so sure the OP is even looking for logos. Just pretty pictures. A flip flop isn't so big or so smooth that a 72dpi jpg is gonna print any worse than a 300dpi or vector file. I'm sure they are quite happy with the stuff they get.

      AlwaysLearning, you have to learn to remove yourself from the equation. No one is asking you personally to do something and not be paid (aside from your current bosses ). The people who do the crowdsourcing are either so good at pretty pictures they get picked often, or don't care cuz they are hobbyists. The totally clueless designers or students who stumble into them need to learn the hard way that it's not what the industry is about. The not so clueless actually read the fine print first. You don't see any, or rather many, makin-it-happen designers fooling around on crowdsource sites.
      Last edited by PrintDriver; 05-12-2012, 12:37 AM.

      Comment


      • #78
        You're right, PD. Maybe it's because of my Bosses and the fact that this is my first real world experience in the field that makes this such a sensitive topic for me.

        Sorry to fly off the handle

        I need to get out of this place...they are turning my normally charming self into a real B**ch, lol. Well, NOT lol, I guess. It's not funny.

        I'm currently at home trying to finish my 6th revision of a catalog with "professional" pictures I took myself with my cheap camera in a make shift "studio." Editing those has been a real treat lemme tell you. They gave me less than a day to do this in.

        The only thing that is keeping me from losing my freaking mind is that I am now hourly.

        So, again...sorry to pop in out of nowhere just to pop off at spec work sympathizer
        I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship.
        -Louisa May Alcott

        Comment


        • #79
          Don't be sorry.
          Just don't internalize it. You'll be happier for it.

          Comment


          • #80
            Thanks everyone for the responses and comebacks to his argument. I've come to a general consensus that those crowd-sourcing sites are as Printdriver and a few others mentioned, hobbyists, "makin-it-happen designers", and lesser quality of "designers". It's not much to compare to educated designers in the field, but more a lower quality replacement that often doesn't result in quality design. My boyfriend's last response to all of the arguments is basically that the website in question (I won't link to it again, sorry for posting it that 2nd time, my mistake!) has become very successful and it wouldn't be successful if there wasn't a market for it.

            I just found out that the co-founder for that specific site, a crowd-sourcing graphic design site, will be at an technology-related event/conference in Chicago(Can I mention the name, or no?) which I will be attending and volunteering at. If I get the chance, is there anything you guys would like me to ask him?

            Comment


            • #81
              In relation to the figures you posted on here, let's just assess the amount of unpaid work a designer produces in relation to the completed "finalized" projects.

              There is an average of three submissions for each project. Ballparking the amount of work someone does by the figures of the site listed, about 90% of their work doesn't win. That being said, only four hours of your actual "work" per week is paid for out of a typical 40-hour work-week.

              This is not taking into account that the people submitting this submit three projects on average, which mean this margin of success is reduced even further, as only one of their submissions wins.

              Additionally, are these numbers current and not cherry-picked? For all we know, this information could be set up similar to job hunting companies that boast that they have over a 70% placement rate, which might have been true when they first set up their site, but has shrunk rapidly (or in the case of web development, glacial-like) in the last ten to fifteen years of operation (for the record, online job placement has been quoted around the 3-5% mark). That being said, I can see a similarity, as a designer is only being paid for 4% of their work (rounding up here), and these numbers are assuming that these figures are "current".

              Then you have to look at the premium that the website is keeping for itself: Usually this ratio is disproportionate to traditional commission positions, which the websites typically amount to 40:60 (ratios vary, but last time I checked, this was about normal). That being said, the people on here, assuming that all numbers are current, are being stiffed for almost 99% of their work. Translation: these people are getting paid 1% of what they should be getting, even for reasonable expectations.

              As for someone getting hired directly from an actual bid website, I personally have never heard of anyone that have been privvy to this (for the record, I go to social mixers that consist of 300+ new people every other week for the past three months, as well as my own events and social networks, which I estimate is a tally of around 700+ people, with over a hundred being design oriented). That being said, with the chances of work being selected online nigh-impossible 4%, chances of actually getting employed at a company is infinitely small.

              As for unpaid internships, yes, they technically don't earn anything for their expertise, but they, in turn, are gaining expertise from their superiors. A now-rare example could be a trade school in which someone works for their master and with the master's tools to hone their trade. Once someone becomes skilled enough that they no longer need direction and can become self-sufficient, they can now offer that expertise to their clients and future pupils. If the intern does something wrong, the master is responsible for the intern's actions (unless it is especially egregious, then both the intern and their overseer could be responsible). Crowd-sourced programs do not offer either the expertise or tools that one can utilize under the direction of someone who is skilled in the trade, and those persons learn by trial and (a lot of) error.

              With unpaid internships though, your work is always utilized, either in your portfolio, or in the real world, and the ratio of work that is displayed outside of your portfolio is significantly increased in your favor.

              As PrintDriver raises the point of basement-dwellers having no expertise, he also didn't mention the fallout related to legal infringement. Worst-case scenario on a crowd-source, someone's account gets banned, but the company (and occasionally the crowdsource website) that commissioned the work is left holding the bag, unless they have a exemption clause. Designers that are directly commissioned do not have this safety net, and have higher overhead, which leads to increased cost, but the risk of legal infringement is lower due to the fact that the designer creates a product from scratch, and if there are legal ramifications (cease-and-desist order, court summons, etc.), those designers can back up their reasoning for use by their inherent knowledge and research they have accomplished during development.

              While some designers may not have an actual degree while practicing their chosen profession, they usually have years equivalence in actual trade knowledge for substitution.

              While your boyfriend raises the point of engineers and architects pitching costs for projects and doing prep work prior to any work being accomplished, graphic designers do this as well, but our details needed are much more limited in scope. The former also are paid upper five to six figures per year due to the higher level of risk/investment/overhead that is involved in their profession, requiring significant amounts of mathematical knowledge and law codes associated with building: If an foundation sinks or a floor buckles, whom is at fault?

              To further expand upon this, there are some designers that are held to the same level of expectations of engineers or architects, such as product development specialists that focus on packaging calculating the amount of raw materials needed to reduce waste, or a game designer having knowledge of computer mechanics to make sure that piece of code does not corrupt your hard drive. Further, even display designers are in a higher pay tier than a typical graphic designer due to the possibility that, if their calculations are wrong, they could wind up hurting someone if a display or platform collapses on a client or bystander.

              As for other fields, there is almost a 10:1 ratio of architects to graphic designers, and even though they have a higher education (at least in terms of mathematical computations, they earn almost five times more. Shouldn't logic dictate that since there are significantly fewer graphic designers in the market, we would be a more valuable commodity? Why are we getting pennies on the dollar through websites? (http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/...b/services.pdf)

              Getting back to my original point: a person is hiring a designer directly for added value. This added value is usually to make sure the project is done right the first time and custom-tailored to your needs by usually going above and beyond pure design aesthetics, and if something happens to hinder it, the person responsible will (to the best of their abilities) make it right. If someone can't use a project they paid for on a crowd-source, either due to lack of experience of the designer, or the legal ramifications in relation to the work, that person is usually out that money.

              In short, why should someone (if I did my math correctly) who comprises 1/36,000th of the job market and has years of applied and academic knowledge be paid less than minimum wage and not get any (okay, 4%) of their work used, while their contemporaries surpass them both in pay and professional achievements? I would like to say there is a fine line between being competitive and being a capitalist shill complaining that they can't keep up with current trends, but that logic doesn't hold water.

              Hopefully that made sense, and my logic wasn't that circular. My insomnia occasionally interferes my ability to rationalize thought, in which defending these companies that cheapen a service that is already severely devalued, most likely makes less sense than I.

              Another way to rationalize this: The Client-Vendor Relationship.

              I hope that clarifies some matters.
              ~People like me are the reason people like you take medication~
              Portfolio

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                I just found out that the co-founder for that specific site, a crowd-sourcing graphic design site, will be at an technology-related event/conference in Chicago(Can I mention the name, or no?) which I will be attending and volunteering at. If I get the chance, is there anything you guys would like me to ask him?
                Is it Techweek? I'll heckle him from the audience.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                  My boyfriend's last response to all of the arguments is basically that the website in question (I won't link to it again, sorry for posting it that 2nd time, my mistake!) has become very successful and it wouldn't be successful if there wasn't a market for it.

                  There's also lots of succesful businesses, like drug smuggling, kidnapping, for example, illegal but there's a market for it.

                  And there's torrent websites to download movies and share files, those guys are getting mega rich because there's a market for it.

                  Doesn't make it right.

                  I know it's completely different, those activities being illegal.


                  The only thing those crowdsourcing websites are good for is a lesson in "bad design".

                  It's people that are "stealing" other peoples work and selling them on. I've seen everything from Stock Images (where stock sites explicity say that their elements can't be used in logos), to two competing people on a crowdsource site accuse each other of robbing each others logos to win the prize.


                  All you are really getting is bad design. And not just badly designed, but badly built.


                  It's undercutting the business and provides sub standard quality.


                  Essentially - crowd source sites can potentially lead a business owner to get a stolen logo in return for cash. It has the potential to be illegal.

                  And do the people who enter these "contests" have to show proof of purchase for the software they use? Nope, because they are making money off their stolen logos, and their stolen software, probably on a stolen computer.

                  It's a market alright, a market for thiefs.
                  Last edited by hank_scorpio; 05-14-2012, 03:16 PM.

                  "May your hats fly as high as your dreams"Michael Scott

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                    My boyfriend's last response to all of the arguments is basically that the website in question has become very successful and it wouldn't be successful if there wasn't a market for it.
                    There is a market for all sorts of crap.

                    Having a market isn't a virtue of anything other than having a market.

                    Markets can be a healthy, or markets can be harmful.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      If successfully making money is the only yardstick, then payday loans and buy here pay here car lots are fantastic enterprises.

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                      • #86
                        Bundled Securities

                        Crystal meth

                        Variable rate mortgage

                        Kiddie porn

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by seamas View Post
                          There is a market for all sorts of crap.

                          Having a market isn't a virtue of anything other than having a market.

                          Markets can be a healthy, or markets can be harmful.

                          I wonder why nobody's crowdsourced the sex trade yet?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Bob View Post
                            I wonder why nobody's crowdsourced the sex trade yet?

                            Hey, it's not like i haven't tried, man.




                            Comment


                            • #89
                              That was you?

                              Man, and I wasted all those courier charges for nothing, too.

                              Still, I have to ask. Did it self-inflate the way I hoped it would when you opened the package? (I was a little concerned about the trigger mechanism)

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by jessica21 View Post
                                I just found out that the co-founder for that specific site, a crowd-sourcing graphic design site, will be at an technology-related event/conference in Chicago(Can I mention the name, or no?) which I will be attending and volunteering at. If I get the chance, is there anything you guys would like me to ask him?
                                How can you sleep at night / live with youself you Pancaking Shmuck?!!!
                                "After all is said and done, more is said than done."
                                Aesop

                                Comment

                                 
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