Need Help with Printing Options

Dabster · 07-29-2004, 06:33 AM

I need help!!! I am taking on a new business venture. I will need to put a paper wrap around a can (Like the label around a can of campell's soup)about the size of a paint can. I want to be able to design custom graphics..ie..logos, business card etc...the size of the paper is about 21" long and 7.5" wide. Can I find a printer that will handle something like this? I can't afford to use a custom print house because the runs can be as small as 1 to ? So I need to be able to use Photo shopor similar software..do the design and print on the paper and then rap it around the can...any suggestions...thanks!!!

uncle carbunkle · 07-29-2004, 06:38 AM

sounds like if you want to make stuff in photoshop or illustrator, print it out at home, then spraymount it to a can....then that's what you should do. it's totally do-able. don't know if the print quality will be what you're looking for...but i don't see why not, for very small runs.

anyone recommend a decent printer for this stuff? you'll be able to get the paper and adhesive pretty easily.

good luck! show us some of your cans.
(i didn't actually mean that to sound as lewd as it did...)

...Ruffa' dan ruff, tuffa' dan tuff...

Dabster · 07-29-2004, 07:53 AM

Thanks Uncle CarBunkle....Quality will be very important. I need to be able to have a pretty professional look...doesn't have to be as high of quality that you might find on a consumer product on the shelf at the grocery but can't be of lower quality of such that looks like a kid did it in art class. What ever format I use it still needs to be done on a low volume production. I am not married to a particular software because I think my options are easier on that end...my big issue is the printer

PrintDriver · 07-29-2004, 03:24 PM

You can get it done at any number of commercial inkjet type print vendors. Even Kinkos will do a print quantity of one. I would advise though that you find a digital imaging printer or lab that does the work as they will have more of a handle on all programs than Kinkos. You will still pay anywhere from $6 to $25 per square foot for inkjets depending on how you get em done and how long you want em to last. Also you may want to wait til you have several different files to print and have em ganged up. Asking for a rough trim rather than finished and doing it yourself will save you some money.

There are also several desktop printers you can get that will print banner size paper on rolls. Not sure you can get photo quality paper to feed into them though. We do some low-end stuff on our Epson that is very decent. Not museum, mind you, but good enough for trade show or short term.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

dakels · 07-29-2004, 08:44 PM

Like Printdriver said, most inkjet printers can handle the banner sizes. Usually up to 44' or so.

You have to go over product quality concerns. There are a few major questions that need to be answered.

1: What is an acceptable resolution/quality?
Most inkjets nowadays can print a resolution that is near or better then magazine quality (300), depending a lot on the quality of paper.

2: What type of materials will you be printing on? (paper thickness, glossiness, finishes, etc.)

3: Do you need special finishing like overlaminate, UV, or waterproofing?
If your product needs water resistance then you will have to look into an overlam solution. Either single or double sided. You can get some cheap overlam machines but it may not be able to handle your size. Usually most cheapo overlam machines are small sheets up to 8.5x11. Bigger sizes may require some sort of roll or continuous feed which can be very expensive. In this case you may want to look into a U/V coat solution.

4: What is the life expectancy of the prints? (Do they need to last 12 months or more? In bright sunny areas?)
Inks fade REALLY fast given certain light conditions. Crappy inks on crappy paper may not last a few weeks without noticeable fade. You will have to consider archival products or a U/V coat or overlam.

5: What type of adhesive for the label to can?
It's important to know how aggressive the adhesive needs to be the product. A weak temporary adhesive like spraymount won't cut it for many applications. You don’t need your labels peeling off the cans a few weeks later. You may need to consider special glues. Its not hard to do manually either. Just brush strips of glue down the back and adhere to the can. You will have to check the staining on the paper though. In most situations you will see the glue stain the front side.

As far as the design app choices, that's not hard. You can use a true page layout program like Quark or Indesign, or just use a design app like Illustrator or Freehand. I and any other real designer here would advise against using a microsoft product like Word or Pubslasher (Publisher). I would not recommend using photoshop for page layout. It is very difficult to layout text and images with and editing is a MAJOR pain. It's meant to be a photo editing app, nothing more.

Answer these questions and you will start to get an idea what type of equipment solutions you need.

PrintDriver · 07-30-2004, 01:47 AM

Dakels has some really good observations and advice.

If you want em water proof get em solvent ink or thermal printed on vinyl (a sign shop could probably help you out there as well as a 'lab').

Do what the can people do. Two lines of rubber cement type glue (or stronger) on the overlaps. Let dry, then stick together. Leave the rest of the label free or you are only asking for heartache.

If you need no fade, ask your printer for UV pigmented inks instead of standard. Inkjets should probably have an olam anyway to prevent smudging from handling.

We're starting to get expensive here aren't we.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

Dabster · 07-30-2004, 02:30 AM

WOW...so much to think about..LOL... everyone's questions are the exact one's running thru my head but have very little knowledge of....Right now I am leaning towards purchasing a Xante CL-21-used with one tray. I think this will give me the flexibility that I will need. Might consider other printers but on first pass this might do the trick..it is a little more expensive than the printers from the local Office Depot but not sure I can find something their that would handle my needs.

I would like to have a nice glossy look but I am afraid of the ink being smudged. It would like the label to last six to 12 months with out a lot of fading. Not likely to be in direct light but will be under your typical florecent lighting. Water proof??? not sure...something to think about?? I was planning on using a glue stick to afix the label....wrap the label around and glue edge and then overlap 1/3'...won't be high production but starting out won't be needed. The help and suggestions are very helpful..THANK YOU!!!!

PrintDriver · 07-30-2004, 03:03 AM

Laser printer toner MAY last longer than inkjet inks. Sometimes. And will take handling better than inkjet anytime.
My Epson inks (standard non-uv type) only last about 6 months inside under flourescents before noticable fading sets in.
The Xante sounds like a good call even if www.flaar.org doesn't have a write-up on it. MacWorld gave it an award in 2002. Not familiar with the machine myself.

PrintDriver is a large format digital print dude. His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

uncle carbunkle · 07-30-2004, 03:20 AM

waterproof may be quite important...how many hands will be touching it?

...Ruffa' dan ruff, tuffa' dan tuff...

Keyare · 07-30-2004, 03:39 AM

I'd swear on a stack of bibles that the Xante is exactly the same machine as the Tektronix Phaser 780 and the QMS 330. The QMS and the Phaser are MUCH cheaper though. None of these printers wil do 21' though. Maximum is 19'

Teslin is the name of the product you want to get. Laser printers print on it REALLY nice and it's outdoor durable for years. It's white and has a permanent adhesive. You can also print on a clear permanent adhesive mylar.

I made stickers that went on the steel handle to the entrance to my shop that had a list of our services. EVERYONE who enteref the shop had to put their hands on it to open the door and it wsa in direct sunlight for half of the day. It lasted 4 years before I moved the shop and had to peel it off. The edges were starting to crack a bit from the sun and the red was slightly faded. Not too shabby.

And waterproof. I make bumper stickers, juice-jug labels and Bug-spray labels with it.

Inkjets can't print on either stock.