logo tiffs printing badly when using quark and PDF

MarkXero · 11-08-2004, 09:50 PM

Twice now I have received print jobs back with errors where a logo is placed over a solid block of colour. I'm using Quark XPress 6.1 on PC. The logo is basically a TIFF of white text, and it is placed over a variety of different coloured background boxes.

The first time we got an error, the logo was a greyscale TIFF (white text, black background), coloured in Quark to match the same CMYK spec as the box behind it.The background of the Quark frame was transparent.The second time, in trying to avoid the problem, the logo was a CMYK TIFF with the background colour matched to the same CMYK spec as the background of the box behind it. Again, the background of theframe was transparent.

The first time was a litho print job, the second was digital. In both cases I generated a PDF using the inbuilt Adobe PDF setting of Quark, but obviously with relevant settings, and in both cases the error was not apparent on the PDF. It alsoappeared as though the error was more to do with screening (? which I must admit I don't understand very well) than with actual colour settings. That is to say, under an eye-glass the error appeared to have more to do with the print process than the inks used.

What really confuses me is that in both cases, similar jobs sent at the same time to the same printer using the same TIFF file placed in the same kind of frame and output as PDFs using the same settings printed absolutely fine.

Has anyone else come across this problem? Firstly, any explanations? Secondly, any solutions? Placing a CMYK TIFF on a matching CMYK background box in Quark is a fairly staple part of a lot of my design work and it worries me that I can never be totally certain that the colours will match.

**PrintDriver** · 11-08-2004, 10:53 PM

Pardon for asking, but why are you using the logo as a tiff and not an eps? Logo not vector?

PrintDriver is a grande format digital print dude (bigger than a proofer, LOL). His advice/opinions may not apply to the 4color/offset/web world of printing

defjoe · 11-08-2004, 11:06 PM

it's missing a clipping path and are you assigning the path in quark?

that NEVER works.

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Jason Fraker · 11-08-2004, 11:21 PM

^^ what they said. You should build your clipping path in photoshop, and save the tiff with alpha channels, then use the alpha channel in quark when you specify clipping.

-Jason

A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can even put on its shoes.
-Mark Twain

Broacher · 11-08-2004, 11:34 PM

Hold on--- why would you create a clipping path for type? You might just as well reset or recreate it in pure vector in AI or whatever. I'm assuming that's why we're talking raster approaches here-- that is, there isn't a vector version available.

Now with greyscales, or cmyks, you are always going to get screened type edges because of halftoning, no matter what the resolution of the graphic. This means if the piece is produced at lower line screens (such as in a newspaper) the edges on small type really suffers.

But, if this logo is pure line (one colour solid, no gradients or feathering), and you don't have a vector, then I'd use a high rez (2400) black and white and spot colour it to 'Paper'. BW files are self-masking and do NOT suffer from halftoned edges. They're also competively very tiny-- even more so when embedded in a PDF which use CCITT4 compression.

MarkXero · 11-09-2004, 12:13 AM

Thanks all for the replies, but the problem isn't the white type. I'm not making the logo background transparent; I'm creating a normal rectangular TIFFwith aCMYK blue colour as the background: so all round the edge of the TIFF is the same blue. I'm then placing this TIFF in an image box over a bigger,empty image box with the same apparent CMYK background colour.When I output the PDF, you can't seethe edge of the TIFF, but I'm getting a difference between the two blues when the job comes back from print.

Jason Fraker · 11-09-2004, 12:47 AM

If it were spot color, I would suggest that you used an uncoated PMS color in one part and a coated PMS color in another. I have had similar problems in Quark, and I ended up just making a clipping path and not trying to do what you are trying to do. I hope someone here can help you more than I can, but I think I just gave up...

-Jason

A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can even put on its shoes.
-Mark Twain

Broacher · 11-09-2004, 01:13 AM

The black and white TIFF tagged white would give you more flexibility, better output, and smaller files size.

But as to the problem with the mismatched blues--- sounds like a colour management problem. Are you using profiles anywhere along this line?

MarkXero · 11-09-2004, 08:07 PM

I don't think it's colour management. Under an eye-glass, the flat blue in the background box appears just that - completely flat. But the area of the TIFF which is meant to be the same blue appears lighter because it has 45º thin white lines across it - hence my assumption there was some kind of screening issue. But why would it appear on one job and not on another when both use the same TIFF and the PDFs are produced with the same settings? And how on earth do I stop it appearing on a future job?

It concerns me because even if I get hold of an EPS of the logo to use on future work, how do I know another CMYK TIFF on another job won't do the same thing - a map, or graphic or suchlike? I'm trying to understand what has caused the issue in the first place. Neither of the two printers who produced the jobs can offer me a decent explanation as to what has happened - it's all been guess work and 'might-be'.

Broacher · 11-09-2004, 08:40 PM

I've got a bell ringing 'PDF' in my head. Specifically, a flattening issue. Certain things can create strange output situations. For example, if you try to create a PDF with a page containing a GIF with transparency (I'm just using this as an example-- don't ever try this at home!), Acrobat 'interprets' the transparency by slicing the whole image into pixel wide 'slices' and applies little tiny clipping paths to each slice.

I've seen this happen in certain combos of other software and Distiller too. Here's a way to check for that scenario: zoom right into the edge of that trouble placed TIFF, and with the Object Touchup tool (it's usually hiding right under the Text Touchup tool), carefully select an edge. If this thing is 'sliced' you'll see it right away as a tiny selection-- otherwise, it's the whole bitmap.

If that's not it, I'd like to take a peek at one of these troubled PDF pages in my own 'Broacher's Home for Wayward PDFs', if you're so inclined to email me one.