Suggestion: A separate sub-forum for high school students

You seem to have misinterpreted what I wrote or, maybe, I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying.

Beginning students know far less than advanced students, and that difference should be taken into consideration when critiquing their work. For example, it would make no sense for an instructor teaching basic arithmetic to criticize his students for not understanding calculus. It’s important to grasp the basics before moving on to advanced subjects that build upon those basics.

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It may require the same type of advice. But the level (degree) of advice SHOULD vary with the level of maturity and experience of the person being advised. As B points out, if someone doesn’t know the basics, you can’t give them the advanced advice. A more mature and more experienced person might feel belittled by the same degree of advice that a less mature and less experienced person needs.

The amount of advice solicited WILL vary with the level of maturity and experience of the person being advised. If they aren’t shy or timid, a less mature and less experienced person will ask more questions, and won’t understand the answers as easily. If they are shy or timid, we just won’t know what they don’t know, leaving the adviser with the burden of asking more questions in order to answer questions. Kids and teens tend to seek simpler shallower answers that only apply to specific situations like the kind that will show up on a multiple choice quiz. One deep thorough answer is worth dozens of shallow answers, but not to those who only seek shallow answers.

The grit of the advice matters. Kids and teens are a little more sensitive to brute honesty than adults. Educating kids and teens requires more social skills the less mature they are. After this recent experience, the more room I see for improvement, the more reluctant I will be to critique any of it. I know that softening things up (mollycoddling) is a chance to practice my diplomacy skills. But it would certainly help me to know if I’m talking to a kid or teen at least if I’m bold enough to make the attempt.

It’s a teaching moment. :slight_smile: An opportunity for them to learn that, along with creativity and design principles, they also need to explain themselves and play nicely with others.

Especially when they want something from said others. :grinning:

I maybe wasn’t clear. By “code” I meant more than just html, css, javascript, php, etc. There’s also visual basic, SQL and other data programming languages.

I was lumping them all together in my statement, and that’s why I feel that design doesn’t play a role in many of those. Although it does in website coding, of course.

Symantics… Oy.

Some applications of coding skills amount to mere translating and don’t require any design skills.

My point is if the work doesn’t show they know the basics, it’s a fairly safe play to assume that the person who created it isn’t attune to the basics, regardless of age.

You said kids are more sensitive to honesty but kids don’t like to be patronized either. Since more mature people have thicker skin, as you’ve implied, a reasonable assumption is that they also have a bit of humility. If they get all butt hurt from being reminded of the basics, they’ll be equally as butt hurt about more advanced advice and no better off if they’re still unable to apply the basics to their work.

Lastly, honesty doesn’t have to be brutal.

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In other words… one of life’s little IF statements.
IF student provides context then critique else no critique;

I think we’re all mostly agreeing, but looking at different aspects of the same problem.

I totally agree that beginning students should know the basics, and be critiqued accordingly since that’s what they need to learn first.

My point has been about critiquing students for things that are several steps beyond what they would be expected to know given their level of education and experience.

Just for example, let’s say the teacher in a high school graphics class makes an assignment with the intention of introducing beginning students to the concept of compositional hierarchies by way of designing a fruit juice label.

A newbie in the class posts her work here and inarticulately asks for feedback. She shows some talent, and we just assume she’s a college design major or a less-than-skilled amateur designer instead of a high school kid struggling with her first project.

We then promptly begin criticizing her for failing to add the correct product bar code and improperly formatting government labeling requirements. We then go on to call into question her decision to use an illustration that would require 4-color process printing plus several spot colors.

All we end up doing in this situation (and others like them) is needlessly discouraging a promising student over things she can’t possibly know about and that has nothing to do with the school assignment she’s been given.

We just need to show some sensitivity and provide feedback that is appropriate to the person asking for advice. If we don’t know needed background information, we probably ought to ask. It takes a lot of guts for a timid beginner to hang her work up in front of the world, and it doesn’t take much at all for us to destroy whatever enthusiasm she might have had.

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I guess you have yet to work with animating @keyframes … to name only one. They’re strictly code …and yet are very very visual as any graphic can ever be. And then there’s all the amazing compositions that can created using Grid. Etc., etc., etc…

Here’s one from Jen…

And If you get a chance, take a look at what’s being thrown down over at Codepen to get full flava.

This ^

And how many times have we seen a ‘volunteer’ from their local non-profit post a logo revision? Or something of the like? To me they seem just as crude as what a HS student post …no?

One of the first things I noticed – and learned – after joining this forum is that irrespective of who solicits feedback for their work, said feedback is almost impossible to give/receive without a proper context. And that’s what all the discussion here boils down to, isn’t it? (I mean apart from the fact that we all just need to be kinder, politer people.) If we know the context, then we can configure our responses accordingly.

So, if context is such a key element of the Crit Pit subforum, I’m wondering if it won’t make sense to find a technical solution to the problem. For example, is it possible to ask the Bot to make it mandatory to fill a form that has all the context-related queries listed in it if someone wants to post to the Crit Pit, irrespective of who they are?

And if that’s not possible then could the experts–at least the regular ones–insist and enforce that the form be filled before they even think about providing any kind of feedback?

If the said form is easily accessible to everyone, then anyone can link to it, including people who are not experts, and soon it might become part of the workings of the forum.

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I like the idea of a form, but I don’t think it should be mandatory. It might discourage participation too much if it’s mandatory. It only need be offered with a statement such as “to optimize the quality of constructive criticism, it would help us to know what level of education and experience you have.”

A prerequisite form could be a very useful for the Crit Pit, but the forum software doesn’t have this particular feature.

The closest I think we could come is to just pin some instructions to the top of that section asking people to provide necessary context for what they want critiqued. I have a feeling, though, that the people who post things with too little information are also the people who wouldn’t bother to read the instructions.

I think it just might be up to those who respond to ask when more information is needed.

I think this is probably the only workable solution. But we should make it a consistent habit.

Because when we do ask, they mostly give us the information. So let’s just ask first, instead of several posts down.

They’d get better feedback, they’d learn more, and we’d save our time by not posting several times.

A header statement like this would be good, although maybe simpler and more directly mandatory.

"Before we can give you feedback, we need to know first about you and your project. Please tell us:

  • Your design experience (student, professional, casual)
  • If this is a school project/assignment or a paid project
  • Details about the client or assignment (type of business, assignment requirements, etc.)

Eh?

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This looks good. Just one suggestion.
Since people have wanted to know whether they’re talking to high school students or college students, it’ll be good to include that question too.

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I’ve been on forums a very long time … and I can tell you one thing. People won’t follow directions. End of story.

There is no need for any more student forums because they don’t get it right as it is.

Then do we need a forum for the secretary who is trying to make a flyer for the boss? The person learning but has nothing to do with a High School or College? The Parent helping out the Soccer team with a t-shirt?

We have said ad-nauseum, if a post isn’t for you or is frustrating you … BY PASS it … and folks can’t seem to do it LOL :smiley:

This is a forum to help people. No one has ever said you have to help every single person who posts. We don’t expect everyone to get a gold sticker. Sometimes you need to be to the point and direct. But, we don’t expect anyone to be a dick about it either.

We want everyone’s time to be enjoyable here.

So there you have it. If you don’t want to participate don’t. If you do … then by all means jump in.

There is no simpler way to put it.

The individualist in me agrees with you, while the collectivist in me is worried about the future of the forum and the industry.

The future of the forum? I’m surprised it’s lasted this long what with all the other playgrounds out there now. This one pretty much died a while ago to a Facebook group.

The future of the industry? Way way too late to be worried about that. About 20 years too late. Evolve, or die out. GD missed its chance.

I’m not worried about this forum’s future. It’s a good resource, and I expect it will last.

I know I can get focused, high quality help when I need it, I can be helpful occasionally, and there’s a lot of room for opinions.

Thanks to the admins!