It isn’t, but we have to remember we started somewhere too - and I forget that at times. Which isn’t helpful.
I’m all for helping someone.
But if you post to a forum looking for a slap on the back and a hearty well done - it won’t be coming from me. It would need to be pristine.
You’re posting to a forum for help, and when you get that help then you cry about it? That doesn’t make sense.
Real life is way worse. I’d never make anyone starting out with me feel bad. But if they are not listening and continue with the same mistakes my opinion is don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
We could make the same arguments against hammers, saws, cameras, wrenches (spanners), drain snakes, paint sprayers, and just about anything else that professionals of one sort or another use.
The real problem, I think, is that design lends itself to the internet and the ubiquity of home computers. In addition, graphic design is perceived as a cool and easy way to make money with no regulation or licensing inhibiting it — either from government entities or trade unions. For whatever reason, it’s a may-the-buyer-beware situation.
Photographers have faced the same problem for decades, so they’ve carved out little niches that amateurs can’t easily fill. Unlike 20 or 30 years, ago, professional designers are now faced with much the same problem.
Anyone can learn to use Photoshop (or hammer or cameras), but using those tools to produce professional-quality work is an entirely different matter. And as I said, graphic design is not regulated nor does the general public realize or appreciate how difficult it is.
I’ve been known to do this once or twice. That’s the Dr. Jekyll side of me. Credit where credit is due, in all honesty – just not happening often enough.
No, but I shall always advocate that maintaining the highest standards should always be strived for, otherwise we accept mediocrity. What would be the point of a newbie coming here for help and advice, if we didn’t always advise the highest of benchmarks. If you lower the bar, then you join the race to the bottom. I always want to surround myself with people who know more than me.
Quite honestly are hobbyists using Adobewares at the high cost of a subscription or are they using the lower end Affinity, online Cnava, or other not so esoteric tools. Kinda like AutoCAD, the price of a single seat usually prices the “hobbyist” right out of the market. But you don’t need AutoCAD to build files that will cut on a garage CNC Table router or whatever. Adobe costs about 12 venti flavorshot lattes a month. That’s a lot for a hobby.
And on the subject of venti drinks and whatnot, get back to me about sustainable capitalism when you stop buying those things, at least in store cups, or anything plastic (we can’t even recycle our plastic sheet stock waste right now because it is not considered cost effective. On consumer products the labeling is often wrong, and NO ONE is taking that crap. China no longer wants it either.) Anything you deem unsustainable, you need to stop buying. Because, until you stop buying it, they are going to keep making it. That’s how capitalism works. Convincing a whole world full of people who want it now, want it cheap, want it convenient, want it delivered wrapped in styrofoam so it doesn’t break…? It isn’t capitalism that needs to change, it’s that attitude. Corporate mindset is to follow the money. You keep handing it to them, it ain’t gonna change
Ha, ya, no kidding
But I don’t think this was a call to kill capitalism. The term sustainable might mean something different to different people. In this case I think they meant earth-friendly, not that capitalism was dying a slow death cuz it couldn’t self-perpetuate. I don’t see any problem there. But if the problem is capitalism creating a slowly filling garbage dump (and not so slowly now considering the billions more people there are now that weren’t here a decade ago…) then yeah. The only way to change that is by not consuming the bad stuff. Good luck with that
Here’s a Guardian article from 2019. Shouldn’t be news now, but it is in the US.
I’ve been holding off commenting on this thread cause I wanted to see how it’d develop, but I think I might have some perspective to offer. As someone who is by nature conflict avoidant and sensitive to criticism, I personally try to take the time to respond carefully, and point out flaws in a way that aren’t likely to agitate the person I’m criticizing. It’s one of the reasons I like written words better than spoken ones for reviews - I can take the time I need to think about what I’m saying without any pesky awkward silences or interruptions.
But one thing that’s important that it did take some time to learn was that critique takes effort, and it takes even more effort to be polite about it, and not everybody is going to be willing to put in that extra effort, especially for free. When you’re asking for help with something for free, while it’s certainly polite to try to avoid stepping on any toes, nobody owes you that extra effort any more than they owe you the help in the first place. It took me a while to get that in my skull, and sometimes I have to take a minute to consciously remind myself that before I respond. Everybody’s fighting their own battles, and when you ask people for help they might not be able to politely hand you the sword - but just because it’s tossed at you doesn’t mean it was an attack.
The problem with the newer folks comes from the fact that they haven’t learned that yet. They’re probably more used to the wider internet where plenty of people post nasty things just for shits and giggles. A lot of them probably shut it out on reflex, while a few others are going to enter fight or flight mode. They’re missing the point that people here aren’t out to hurt them, even if what’s said comes off rough.
There are definitely folks on here who you can tell take the extra time in their responses - but again, the point is extra time. Not everyone is going to have an hour to fiddle with their wording on an unpaid critique, and the options shouldn’t be limited to “carefully thought out dissertation on the flaws in your design” or complete silence.
That’s not to say all the senior members are faultless - there’ve been some lines toed-across, but the worst I’ve seen unprovoked has been the verbal equivalent of the following:
Of course you’re right about environmental impact. That’s a big part of what I meant, but I also meant the human price. Capitalism might work just fine in the longer term if companies, that is, their owners, were ever satisfied to make profits at a steady rate and re-invest an equitable portion of them in the social ecosystem so that CEO’s and others at the top level aren’t making 1000’s of times the wage of their average employee. I’ve spent a lot of my time making presentations for corporate meetings where basic financial results are presented to the lowly employees with the underlying message “continuous improvement and maximized shareholder return”. The continuous improvement part of that never translates only to “higher quality;” but always, and much more emphatically, hammers lower cost. “Do more with less so your owners can make more $ while you make the same.” Year-over-year targets are stacked to increase market share, sales, and profit margins. "Last year we achieved 12% growth, so the target for this year is 20%. How could that possibly continue year after year? It’s the greed that makes it unsustainable.
Guess all those greedy owners are finding out now what happens when workers are paid more to stay home.
I have never had any care that my company owner makes a helluva lot more than I do and drives a Lambo. I wouldn’t want his headaches. I feel that if I had the drive, the financial acuity and the chutzpah to go out start a business that employs a couple hundred people and keep that business running through all the crap the last couple of years, I might have a nicer bass boat myself. As for someone like Jeff Bezos? His company employs 1.2million people. The benefits offered to even the “lowly” warehouse workers is far above anything I will ever see, but I have no desire to work for the man. Amazon Employee Benefits
Don’t like the job or the company message? Leave. Might require investment in education or retraining though.
ie some drive, financial acuity and chutzpah.
I’m hesitant to post this and will likely regret it. However, here are my pessimistic views on the much bigger picture.
As a species, we evolved to thrive in small groups hunting and gathering food in Africa.
Many of our species not-so-admirable qualities worked well on a small scale. Social skills, threats, and acquiescence settled disputes within the group. Violence was often a viable means to an end. Greed helped ensure that we didn’t get too complacent during the good times.
We settled disputes with neighboring groups in ways that enabled the strongest and most socially cohesive and aggressive groups to prevail through intimidation and warfare. Our ability to exploit natural resources gave us an advantage over other animals not equipped to do the same. Our ability to think through problems and develop novel technical solutions gave us an edge that ensured our survival and allowed us to colonize the planet.
Fast-forward twenty-thousand years, and we still possess those same qualities. We’re close cousins to chimpanzees — apes with nuclear weapons. Our ability to exploit natural resources combined with greed and our innate desire to compete and accumulate is raping the planet for short-term gains while ignoring the obvious long-term consequences. Disputes with neighboring tribes no longer involve a few rocks thrown and the weaker group driven out and replaced by the stronger tribe — those disputes risk the deaths of hundreds of millions of people.
Our species’ ability to adapt, manipulate and gain an advantage has enabled us to create a world in which we’re no longer well-suited. The same qualities that helped us to thrive and grow as a species have led us to the point where those qualities are increasingly counterproductive in the finite world in which we live.
From an evolutionary perspective, every species is in a battle for survival within the confines of its environment. Those species capable of adaptation survive, and their populations expand to fill their niches until they reach an equilibrium with their habitat.
Equilibrium is never pleasant because it depends on predation, disease, starvation, and premature death to enforce the balance. Humans have used our ability to manipulate our environment using technology to escape these natural limiting factors.
When disease breaks out, we invent cures. To prevent starvation, we enhance agricultural production. When it’s too cold, we wear warm clothing and seek refuge in heated buildings. We invent plumbing, highways, supermarkets, the internet, and most everything else needed to delay our day of reckoning with the limiting factors that other species can’t maneuver around.
Unfortunately, neverending population growth is impossible. The planet has a finite size. Natural resources have immutable limits. We’ve built a horrendously complex interconnected system that resembles a house of cards. Remove any one card, and it risks a cascading collapse of the entire structure.
How far we’re away from that day of reckoning, I don’t know. I suspect we can keep figuring out workarounds for decades. Even so, we will eventually reach our limits. A catastrophic collapse will ensue that brings us back to a messy equilibrium with what’s left of our habitat.
I hope I’m wrong and that we’ll figure out a way to limit population growth, eliminate warfare, and live in harmony with our environment. Unfortunately, that’s not in our nature.
I’m not sure how this works in Ireland, but here, these kinds of discounts are typically due to volume buying for frequent customers or wholesale buying directly from the distributor. My nephew is a building contractor. He bought a small hardware store specifically for the purpose of obtaining wholesale prices on building materials.
I get discounts at most of the local printers I use since I’m a repeat customer and because my files don’t typically require time-consuming redos and prepress fixes. I also get agency discounts on ads I place for customers in various media publications.
I used to get an AIGA discount of a few percent on Adobe software until Adobe stopped offering it. I also got educational discounts from both Adobe and Apple when I was working at a university. But as you mentioned numerous times, Creative Cloud software isn’t a significant expense as far as business expenses are concerned. A few percent off doesn’t amount to that much with Adobe software.
Maybe I’m not understanding your argument about Adobe software selling for around the same price to professionals as amateurs. I’m not quite seeing the point when Adobe does offer various discounts and when the software expenses aren’t that onerous in the first place. Even if they offered a 50% discount, we’re only talking $25 per month.
As I said it was off the cuff in anger more so than well-thought-out logical reasoning behind it.
But … logically…
If you were to have a qualification in a design field. And you put your credentials into the Adobe system (or Affinity or Quark - it doesn’t matter).
Wouldn’t it be beneficial for someone to have a qualification to receive a discount on the software(s) they use. Or appy for a discount through some other form.
I’m not saying this is doable.
But if there are 1 million design companies in the world. And 2 people working in each of them.
Wouldn’t it be beneficial to the design company - the staff - the clients - etc. to have a discount, well trained staff that continue their professional development through an online portal… etc.
1 million companies get a discount, 2 million benefit from continuous learning - and 50 million clients get a better service from people who are in a better position to help them.
Now, you don’t have to do it either. But if the industry was regulated and you had to have these things in place to do business, wouldn’t the design world be better off or worse off?
I get volume print pricing because I’m a repeat customer with a lot of work. If I go anywhere else, I’m very likely to pay near book price, at least until I establish a good wholesale relationship.
What’s in it for Adobe if they give you a discount?
Absolutely nothing.
It’s not like you are going to go to someone else.
Besides, what you describe starts getting into a monopolized situation that would be even worse than what Adobe has now. I hate not having choices.
Hmmm, really though, tools of trade that are technically “durable goods,” are not a good analogy to software. In fact, even if a tradesperson get’s a “trade price” on a power saw, chances are it’s a saw with a much higher price than I’d have to pay to get one of a “consumer” brand that has all the same capabilities, but perhaps wouldn’t hold up as long under daily use.
I am sorry if my comment about elitism upset anyone, that was not my intent, my intent was to hold up a mirror so that you could see how it might be interpreted from outside.
Indulge me a little if you will so that you might gain a clearer understanding of my perspective. If you find this post long and uninteresting then just skip to the next post, it is unimportant.
I have two bachelor of science degrees, one in Electronics and the other in Computing.
When I left education I was young and naive and just took the highest paid employment that was available. It was a big mistake, but I didn’t realise this for some time.
I cannot tell you what I was working on because I signed papers requiring me to keep it a secret (yes even after forty seven years). The job was highly paid and the work was interesting, there were many challenging problems to solve but I was increasingly troubled by the end product of my work and after only a year I started to look for an alternative job elsewhere. The straw which broke the camels back was a particular module which had to be made to be ultra ultra reliable using the latest technology (1975 technology that is) but in use would only have to function for a few minutes maximum before being destroyed.
I stuck it out for three years before finding a new job. This was in medical research with the National Health Service (NHS), although the pay was much more modest this job was indirectly helping people rather than making machines to kill people. Helping people fit much better with my socialist principles. I was working in the same job in medical research for forty two years before retiring. The problems were challenging and the work was interesting. Most of the things we produced were not patented or copyrighted on principle, instead they were published in scientific papers for the world to benefit from.
The devices we produced were highly regulated, all patient connected equipment had to meet the requirements of IEC:60601 and all laboratory equipment had to meet the requirements in IEC:61010. Any clinician using equipment not certified to these standards risked being sued for unsafe practices.
Unlike the American health service which works for the benefit of it’s shareholders the British NHS is publicly funded and works for the maximum benefit for the maximum number of people. Apart from the three years at the start of my career I have not worked in the commercial sector.
I am now retired so I concentrate on my hobbies of electronics and typeface design. The typefaces I produce are all free. I do occasionally do a graphic design project but they are all for people who do not have the money to get the job done by a graphic designer and they are all local to Sheffield so the members of this esteemed forum have nothing to worry about from my efforts. I pose no threat to them.
I don’t see the occasional, or even the ubiquitous hobby designer as a threat to anyone. If a professional has moved out into the freelance world and finds themselves competing at the hobbyist level, perhaps they have made an error of some magnitude.
Crowdsourcing doesn’t even come into my equation, I’m a little more shielded from that than my cohorts in crime at other shops. Still occasionally something does cross my desk. A client is a client. A fair price is often beyond their budget. But at least I will reply.
That is the problem, and the commercial art industry is part of the problem, as it depends on a free saturated market with high competition. We promote consumerism and help market bad stuff.
That is a choice you as an individual can make. Don’t blame consumerism when it is you contributing to the problem. Surely there is another way to put food on the table if it bothers you?
That’s like I’m constantly having to remind designers to mind their yields. Sure I can cut that 32" x 49" printed komatex panel for you. I get exactly ONE out of a 4’x8’ sheet. Help a guy out here, will you please?
And what would put another nail in the coffin of the industry? The death of capitalism.
