I am noticing that way too many times people are acting arrogant or mean spirited toward people who are just looking for advice or simply have a different opinion. This is sad since there does seem to be a tremendous amount of talent on this forum. Perhaps some of you need to take a step back and check your egos before posting or commenting. This is starting to look like Facebook instead of an experienced Graphic Design Forum.
I agree. We used to have an infraction for being “Unnecessarily Dickish” it might be time to dust it off again.
Not convinced. What I love about this place is that there are so many seasoned pros who are willing to give freely of their time to help young, aspiring designers. Most of the time that help is given with the best of intent. However, occasionally, you get an arrogant, entitled young person who is just plain rude to people who are trying to help.
Sometimes that help is not sugar coated. Sometimes it can be brutally honest, but i have never seen it gratuitously mean spirited.
If some kid is rude to people trying to help, personally, I think it is fine to give them some home truths. I would in the real world, so why not here?
There is no personal gain for the pros choosing to help out. They do it, I assume (at least I do), in the spirit of wanting to give something back.
So, frankly, if some kid is rude, they need to be called out on it, to my mind.
I am noticing that way too many times people are acting arrogant or mean spirited toward people who are just trying to help out a newbie and give real world, practical advice.
Fixed it for ya!
Realizing this is open forum, LOL, and having been the recipient of said dubious “infraction award” way in the past - a couple times I think - I now no longer engage when it is not worth the effort. Recently had to take a few weeks away to reset to extreme WTF-EVer mode again.
Just remember that those exchanges usually go both ways whether real or misinterpreted.
There’s the thread that RKK closed, which turned into a mess, but I think I also see @Oldcelt’s concern showing up is more subtle ways in how we approach posts from new forum members who are, more often than not, inexperienced and timidly testing the waters with a first post or two.
Sometimes, I think we have a tendency to lump new forum members together. There’s the crowdsourcing group. There’s the amateur group. There are those looking for a quick career in graphic design via YouTube.
It’s easy to roll our collective eyes and respond to these people with a dismissive attitude. I think what we sometimes forget is that each of these people came here looking for advice with many of them nervously making a first post and hoping for an understanding reply and some validation.
It’s difficult for me sometimes to put myself in their shoes, and it’s way to easy for me to be too blunt with them when I see the same newbie questions and attitudes come up over and over. It’s not easy starting out in this field, and hard truths are often necessary, but sometimes our delivery can be a little too direct and insensitive. People have feelings and emotions that need to be considered along with the advice we might have for them.
There is nothing wrong with being frank and honest. Yes, new people need to hear this type of thing to grow.
It doesn’t give anyone a free pass to be an ass.
But you only find out you were being an ass after the moment passes.
Sometimes it’s semi intentional. Like poking a fire. Sometimes it stokes it sometimes you get burned.
I got burned.
And I apologize if I was an ass recently.
No more poking at fires for me.
There’s a nicer way to do it.
But we live in moments. And sometimes there are bad moments and most of the time good moments.
Everyone can have an off day.
Of course we can all overstep the mark sometimes, but here we all usually start off courteous in our responses, even if, as I said before, sometimes they can be brutally honest.
However if someone is rude, even at 19 (which is old enough to vote, get married, carry a gun (on one side of the pond), drink alcohol (on the other), drive a car, etc, etc), I see no reason why that lack of respect should go unchallenged. We all learn by the reactions of our peers. If you want to be treated as an adult, then you have to act like one – even at 19.
Of course in doing so, we should not descend into mud-slinging, but if someone – whoever they are – is as disrespectfully rude to me as this person was, I will always challenge their behaviour.
Silence is sometimes the prudent approach, but sometimes it is tantamount to condoning and allowing bad behaviour. I was brought up to always be respectful to others. I, therefore, expect the same in return.
Can you tell, I feel pretty strongly about this?
I don’t believe I have seen a seasoned designer member fire in anger, not even under provocation. We might sound like a teacher, a stern one sometimes, but the focus is always the subject at hand, unless there’s a hint of crowdsourcing or speculative competitions (That’s a button a newbie should not push).
Sarcasm was applied it’s true. I’ve used it. But out of mean-spirit or spite? We’re just too old for that kind of nonsense.
I’m sorry you see it that way, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone here act in a cynical way.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with new posters being told home truths when posting material for a critique - in fact I think it’s super helpful and probably much more valuable than the insights they would get from a critque at most modern universities.
The part I find dissappointing is the uptake of the valuable feedback or the person being critiqued getting defensive.
Yeh I still kinda think this kid never had someone say something negative. I wasn’t that bad, really. I was looking at all his posts for critique and he never made any improvements to any of it no matter what was said.
I can be an idiot at times.
I hate to sound like my own grandfather, but from what I can see this is not a unique case. There’s a generation of kids who have never been told no, hence the whole Karen phenomenon. There seems to be a shocking amount of entitled princesses about these days.
My own tendencies are lean towards more liberal end of the spectrum, but… there is a point when liberal freedoms tip across into a belief of one’s own right to exist over and above everyone else’s and all empathy and respect for others seems to disappear.
Yesterday I went for a beer with a mate and there was a kid in there having such a meltdown tantrum over the wrong flavour if crisps (chips). This child had the flavour he had asked for, then pulled the classic, toddler power-play, ‘Don’t want that one’.
So what does the father do? Yup. Buys another flavour to placate the kid and stop the tantrum. Then another. As a kid, if I’d have even hinted at that kind of behaviour, my parents would have quietly taken the crisps away and that would have been that. No crisps at all for the rest of the week. If I’d even tried to tantrum about it, I’d have have been marched outside, so as not to disturb the rest of the room and told, in no uncertain terms, why you cannot behave in that way. It’s not rocket science.
Those people are going to have such a hard time of it with that kid in 10 years time and it’ll be their fault, but everyone else will pay for it too. Moreover that kid is not going to be a happy, contented member of society, that others are drawn to. It is a horrible cycle.
It’s my generation’s fault. When I was in my mid-late 20’s, living in London and friends started dropping children, I was shocked at the level of pandering these kids received from their parents. Competitive birthday parties. There was a thing whereby mothers would register their children in the school they wanted while they were still pregnant. Bad behaviour looked on indulgently as creative expression.
Once, I remember, one of these friends (who had been an intelligent, witty, engaging, corporate lawyer and great company before she procreated), came to visit one afternoon with the progeny, who was about 4-5 at the time. This kid decides it can wander wherever it likes around our house, much to our dismay. Off it trundles into another room where my then wife had a beautiful, and not particularly inexpensive (18th birthday present from her parents) boudoir grand piano. This kid decides to start hammering on the keys with his fists. We both looked, with a certain degree of horror, towards the mother, expecting a similar degree of embarrassment that her kid was doing such a thing and rectify the situation, post-haste. Not a bit of it. ‘Oh, isn’t he musical’ says she with a slappably beatific, adoring smile on her face. My ex-wife was not one for tolerating this from other people’s kids in our house. She marched over, lifted the kid off the piano stool, plonked him next to his mother and put the keyboard lid down with some gusto. ‘We wouldn’t want that our little fingers get hurt now would we?’
This kid then follows us back to the kitchen, where we were having tea and cake. It was a beautiful summer’s afternoon, so the patio doors were open onto the garden. The kid sat there quietly for a short while (a very short while), then decided he was bored, so thought a fun game would be to slam the patio door, open it again and slam it. This was repeated a couple of times until, I stood up, said nothing, retrieved the door from the child and locked it. The mother stood up, unlocked and said, ‘He’s only playing’. At which point, I suggested, perhaps he go home and play with his own patio doors. We didn’t see all that much of this particular couple after that and they were certainly never invited back.
God knows what world of pain they had with that kid by the time he was 15.
Sadly, this was not unique. They were, by far, the worst example of indulgent parents I knew, but they were not alone. For some reason, my generation were the first to decide, it was not the parents’ job to guide and teach their children how to become a functioning member of society, but rather treated them as infallible little princes and princesses.
I am sure this has had a direct impact on this kind of entitled behaviour we are seeing now.
Blimey, it’s quite some time since I’ve had such a full-on rant – especially when somewhat off topic, like this one. My apologies.
There’s a global millennial attitude.
Attitudes are different now. And that’s the world we’re in now.
It’s different than it was 20 years ago.
And 20 years from now it will be different again.
A lot of my friends their kids are very well behaved. But I do see the entitlement in a lot of the neighbours kids.
One of them out skateboarding on a ramp he got at Christmas (in the Summer time this happened not at Christmas) at 10pm on a Sunday night.
His parents in the house, their cars parked on the road so the kid can play on his ramp (and I say kid he’s about 14).
I was livid. But it’s impossible to say anything as you’re the worst in the world.
You pull up a kid on their behaviour and attitude and the parents slam you for bringing it up - rather than addressing the real issue.
Sounds familiar really.
The friend, I was with in the pub yesterday has four kids of his own. I asked him what he’d have done. His response, ‘Certainly not that!’. He has four, erudite, articulate, well-behaved, respectful kids. Again, not rocket science.
Last weekend, I did a gig and this guy (who is our drummer) had his 13-year old boy there at the sound check. At one point in a break in proceedings, I sat down with this son and had a conversation with him. Completely adult and articulate. A real breath of fresh air these days. It can be done, but parents seem to be hell-bent on being their kids’ friend rather than their parent these days. The former part comes later and it is far stronger for it.
As a teenager, I spent 18 months passing my father in the house and not talking to him. He was such an idiot when I was 14! Now, I have a friend, a mentor, a confidante. Takes another decade or so to realise you were the stupid one.
It’s just the way it’s gone.
Probably down to when they were kids they never got the things they wanted. And their parents probably couldn’t afford those things. Now, they have their own kids, the adult who resents their parents for never giving them anything thinks it will be better if they give their own kids whatever they want, so they pander to them, thinking this new-age parenting is good for them, in reality it’s setting up a failure later in life.
When I was a kid I would ask for a new pair of runners/trainers/sneakers and my mother would tell me that if I washed the windows for 4 weeks I could have them.
Back then I thought I was just being used as slave labour for a new pair of runners, but now looking back, my mother needed 4 weeks to save for them. And she also used that time to teach me the value of money. You had to earn it.
And my mother often tells me that her friend was with her in the dining room, and they were chatting. I asked my mother if it was ok if I could go out for the day and she said I could but to cut the grass before I left. My mother said her friend lept out of the chair to see if I was doing it - and claimed that if she wanted her kids to do anything she’d have to pay them.
This was 30 years ago. So back then the problem started. Parents paying their kids to do chores. Which I think is wrong.
My wife’s nephews - when one has a birthday they both get presents so they don’t upset the other. And at Christmas the value of the present doesn’t matter, one kid got upset because he got an ipod and the other got a drum set - but the drum set was larger than the ipod so the kid started crying. (kid now - 14 and 16)
If that was me - I’d take the ipod off him and he’d never see it again. Ungrateful git. But the mother pandered to him and went out and bought him an electric guitar to make up for it.
I was watching all this happen with an open mouth - I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.
Nowadays, parents are just buying their kids what they want and the kid has to do nothing for it.
A woman I worked with had a 6 year old that wanted a new iPhone, I asked her about it and persumed it was a toy iPhone … not at all - a full blown €1000 iphone for a 6 year old.
When I was six I got painting sets, train sets, lego, books, etc.
To bring it back on topic.
2 summers ago I was asked to take on a few summer interns. So I did.
There were 4 of them so I set about giving them tasks. Basic easy 1 page posters. I’d have a senior create the first draft. Then get the interns to work off that to come up with different ways or even improvements.
I was able to sit with 3 of these guys and go through all the work and they were very receptive.
1 of them, any time I approached them to help them instantly said things like ‘I know what I’m doing’.
I let him be. And his work never really improved. I tried my best to talk about this with him, but he was very dismissive.
I hired 2 of the interns. The other went to another place which I was fine with and gave a glowing reference.
The 4th awkward know-it-all has gotten a reference from me, but only states he was on time, and worked for 3 months as an intern - or something really basic like this.
2 are now really good designers working with my Senior designer who get on great. 1 is off doing their own thing I think doing really well.
I don’t know what happened the other guy.
It’s one of those things - I haven’t got time for hand holding and stringing people along in a false sense of hope.
You might have talent, but your attitude stinks.
And when their attitude stinks - so does mine.
I’d rather focus on the ones who are interested and want to learn.
I’d be in the shits if I left the other 2 go and took him on.
So attitude is important to me.
I react very much like a jerk when someone has a badititude.
That’s the way it is.
Indeed it is getting entertaininger and entertaininger.
This is something I believe in (and often misquote):
“Train talent, but hire attitude.”