Yes I’m certain my price was way too high. There isn’t a doubt it was all about price
You’re making something which is bespoke, which requires a lot of time, empathy, understanding and skills to design and you sell that for less than the price of a pair of mass produced designer jeans… do you think sounds a little imbalanced?
Wow. Well, I am going to say the same thing I just told another designer:
if someone reaches out to me about a price, I don’t give one. I screen them first. If they respect my process and seem like they might be a good fit, then I set up a call.
This is to say, “Hey, I’m not an order taker” and to see if they’re not serious or just price shopping. It also says, “I’m not sitting around waiting for clients to bestow work upon me.”
I ask them about their project and what they’re trying to accomplish.
Only then will I provide an estimate after gaining an understanding of their needs. Otherwise, it’s usually solely about price.
Also, what you charge is going to depend on the size of the client, geographic location, your expertise, quality, any particular niche or specialty, etc.
I am known for unmatched attention to detail and my work in a particular niche. That makes it easy in the client’s eyes to pay more.
I never quote hourly rates for design work. Should you be paid less because it takes you less time than someone else and the client gets it faster? Absolutely not!
You should be paid on your expertise, not on the time it takes. When you quote hourly, you’re only considering your time, not the value of your expertise, taxes you’ll be paying on the income, etc.
The value to the client is high. What if the client’s sales double as a result of the new packaging? Is that worth only $150 to them?
On the other hand, if designer A takes longer designer B, should the client pay more because designer A is slower?
When you respond with an estimate, you’re encouraging price shopping. It’s a race to the bottom. Someone will always be cheaper. You won’t get the work and whoever does is doing it too cheap.
Thats a good way to put it and I havent thought about it like that. Its always good to have new clients or returning clients.
But you live and learn. I thought I quoted them fairly the first time. Then I undercut that. I also didn’t have all day to argue about pricing.
You gave the price and asked if it was doable. Is it up for negotiation? I don’t negotiate pricing unless the scope of work is reduced. What they think they should pay or have the ability to pay isn’t my concern.
And, yes, you live, you learn. I’ve been doing this for a while (23 years). In my earlier days, I certainly wasn’t living the advice I just gave. 
@Billyjeanplxiv, I’ve deliberately not mentioned this since we don’t talk about the specifics of pricing here, but in general terms, how can you possibly work for $15.00 per hour?
No freelancer looking for work can consistently fill up an entire 40-hour workweek with billable work. There’s a ton of overhead time and expenses that go into this business, along with taxes and insurance. By the time it’s all taken into consideration, that’s half the money you’d be making working at a fast food counter. There’s just no way to even put food on the table at those rates, let alone pay the rent.
Each time you quote a potential client with a price like that you’ve cheapened the respect for the entire profession and conveyed the notion that we’re all lining up like beggars, willing to perform whatever tricks are necessary to get a handout. As @creativeboost said, it becomes a race to the bottom and at $15 per hour, that’s pretty good evidence that you’re in the race and that someone else is even going lower.
This is nuts! I know it’s difficult to get started and to pull in good clients, but you’ll never, ever get there with fees that low.
Just judging from the string of messages you posted, all the signs were there, right from the initial inquiry, that this person was just a cheapskate tire kicker who with one hurriedly and badly written note expected you to spend time putting together an estimate for something that he didn’t even bother to give you any details about. Your response was good in that you asked to set a time for an exploratory conversation, but when he blew that off and mostly just repeated his request for a price, you, got suckered in.
If it had been me, I would have ended the exchange at that point. No interest from a potential client in an initial meeting pretty much means that the client isn’t serious and isn’t worth dealing with. Even if your entire week is open with no work, that kind of client is still not worth pursuing since the chances of anything at all coming from the work (other than frustration) is practically nil.
Quoting 15 was a mistake.
It is difficult to get started an to pull in clients. I’m trying to do that now with very little success. Part of it was eagerness?
I thought i was pretty polite to her. I tried to be accurate as I could. Next time the conversation will go differently for sure judging by the responses I’ve seen here.
Judging by the work they received, I don’t know how happy I would have been to see the result but she got what she paid for. And that person must have had an even cheaper rate which makes me wonder…
I just noticed the pic where the client wanted “something like this.” They indeed got that, and the competitor might take legal issue with that.
I didn’t even notice that. She provided her designer the sketches and she drew one herself (posted on her IG story). She got what she paid for, and maybe that’s more than she was asking for (legally). But how can that company prove someone took inspiration from that design.
Even if the other company cannot make that case, it doesn’t bode well for the newer product to look so similar (even the blue is close!). Poor branding.
So the blue may actually be the blue from the OG. Because the image i used was a photo taken off a screen, and i straighten it in PS and added it to Adobe Dimensions to mockup.
I’ve pretty much agree this is 90% identical visually speaking. Even from a hierarchy standpoint…
Next! The goal is not to win every job that comes your way. The goal—if you want to stay in business—is to be profitable.
In a lawsuit, that’s not what they would need to prove. Instead, they would just need to convincingly demonstrate that Company B’s packaging was similar enough to Company A’s packaging of the same kind of product to have a high probability of misleading customers.
How you respond makes a huge difference. No offense (and, hey, like I said, been there, done that and have a bunch of stories about bad clients), you came across as needy and not confident and open to negotiation). It’s like dating: act like you don’t care and they will flock to you, LOL. Maybe I’ll do my next podcast episode about this topic more specifically than I have in the past.
Check out Win Without Pitching by Blair Enns.
Im reading the link. I usually don’t bother listening to podcast. and the info looks pretty helpful. Ill def use this.
Definitely listen to @creativeboost’s interview with Blair Enns. His views on working with clients has been a game changer for many freelance designers.
So I read the first Podcast and listen and read the second.
What I took away from the Blair Enns one was:
You know what it takes to deliver good design work. You’re the expert and while cookie cutter clients come across. The idea is to have a positive mindset so you can be a resource, dependable but not used. Learn to say no early and don’t get invested before the meeting, don’t compete for the bottom line by lowering price and giving away designs, and price according to value to the company.
I was trying to price according to the value originally, but didn’t recognize the client was using our previous relationship to try to get cheaper work. I was invested in to trying to retain a client when the value I provide them would be greater to them than it would be for me. I should price as such.
That implies a cynical, ‘if they can afford more, charge them more’. I think it is more about the direct monetary value your work and expertise will bring to them and making sure you’re are compensated accordingly. That should be your benchmark. Then you can work backwards from that for smaller companies, or organisations. That way, your full, commercial rate can subsidise any worthy causes and charities you choose to work for.
Read the thread here and not sure what the problem is.
You quoted for work and didn’t get it. Move on.
Don’t worry about the time-wasters and the tire-kickers. Price up fairly. Cover your time at an hourly rate that makes sense. And if they go with someone else because they are cheaper… then they probably aren’t valuing their business or their investment in their product.
There’s going to be so many issues with the printing, I know because I’ve designed doy bags before and I know the pitfalls, there’s going to be major production issues that need to be addressed by the designer, for instance, the white background. This is going to cause them major headaches - do they need the white background printed, do you want foil showing throw, you need to punch out logos etcs to reveal the foil behind. Does the white need a double strike, if you have thin lines in logos how will this be affected, what’s the tolerance, minimum line size, is it .125pt or something else?
At the end of the day, it’s a doy bag, front and back. Or as I would look at is a poster double-sided. Take aside that it’s a doy bag and you’re left with a pretty simple project. But then there’s production - that’s when you need to think about the finishing - and this needs to be done at the start.
Think finishing at the beginning. This is where your expertise comes into play - and this is what you charge for.
Yeh, a poster may be a $150 double-sided design. No problem, I can knock out 10-20 of these a day for different clients. Easy money.
Someone may undercut me an say they can do it for $15. Good luck.
But packaging, printing processes, substrates, tolerances - these are all things I know like the back of my hand. And it’s things others don’t know.
So I can keep my prices low - as I know pitfalls. But others undercut me, fine - they will spend far more hours and time on projects than I will.
Maybe the person who got the project designs doy bags and understands the pitfalls and designs around those pitfalls and the process is a simple double-sided poster.
It’s too open-ended to understand what went on away from you and what conversations the other designer had with the client.
However, if someone was hammering me on price - I have a bottom line that I won’t go below. Set yourself the same lowest bar and don’t compromise yourself. It’s your business at the end of the day. If someone is doing it cheaper - then move on to the next.
The only way I ever go below my minimum design price is if I am taking on the production of the product, but this means I take the design and get a printing price, deal with printers, place the order and give the quote back to the client. This then gives me the opportunity to mark up the printing price to cover my costs in managing the printing, production, and delivery.
Printers will give you trade prices, so even with your markup on projects for print, you can still get it printed cheaper than if they went to the printers directly.
20% on a $5000 print project is a pretty sweet profit - ($1000) in your pocket. Yes, the client final price maybe $6000 for the print - but if the printer gave them a walk-in one-off price, it would be in the $10,000 range.
At the end of the day, the client gets it cheaper, you make money, the printers make money, and everyone is happy.
Think about that.
Im no expert in printing and rarely deal with printers. I know she was going through some service and they had requirements. Indont know what those were.
The point of the thread was to see if what I made (for fun) was better than the official design she went with.
It then turned into a discussion about price and business.
I dont know the issues you’re talking about with a doy bag and white background. I would assume the ink or color is printed on white plastic. I dont believe foil is involved. I actually think her product will be a papered bag with plastic lining. I dont know.
Of course - I was just following the path of the thread.
Without knowing the production - then it’s hard to know what the pitfalls of the designs are.
If you want the critique - they are both good - and both bad.
It’s unclear if Core Perform should be a key point or not as one is standout on one and not the other.
3 key ingredients is not clear on your version.
The CORE Perform is executed much better on the design on the left.
Empowering Guts is missing the TM on your version. If the other design just stuck in TM in there then it has no legal meaning and needs to be registered with USPTO.
So there’s clear messaging on your version that isn’t clear on the rivals either- like the flavour.
As I said - they both have good and bad points.
Overall execution, I’d say the one on the left was done better, but is flawed too.
